PDA

View Full Version : Classic Rally Car Info needed



T99
22-05-02, 02:51 PM
With Edo going on about his VC, I thought this might be a good time to ask for any info anyone has.

After going through what seems like 100 cars, I am now really interested in a Mitsubishi Lancer 1600GSR, the 1973 model. This car has pedigree, being a contender to the Datto 1600 and Eskie of that time, actually even winning the Southern Cross.

What I want to know, is what did the road Lancer of that era come with? If they didn't come with a 1600 in road form, then what engine would it have been? I can find out about the rally cars, but if someone here can remember anything about the Southern Cross and Safari of back then, please share any info you may have. If anyone has an old works car in the shed, this might be a good time to sell it (Cheap).

Unlike Edo's mega hp beast, I know this car in rally trim only had about 150hp, but I am guessing that is enough to play with the big boys. (Besides Edo, you gotta run up against some damn fast A9Xs and SLR5000s with that beast, I simply have to take on 2002s, 1600s and.....damn!) Another option is the even older Galant (1971) but lets just say that they are just too ugly for now!

edo
22-05-02, 03:25 PM
Oh so you want to try a subtle approach! Why?

Stix Zadinia
22-05-02, 07:39 PM
why not a golf GTI
or are they too slow.
they handle...

if you call it that.

Guido
22-05-02, 07:44 PM
Ok, this is some info that I have dredged up. The early ones (73) were not actually a GSR but a Colt Galant (or Lancer Galant). The Colt (Lancer) GSR started in 74 with a 1498cc motor then went to 1596cc (with 165HP) in 76. In safari trim they weighed in at 1100KG. As you probably know they won the safari in 74, 75, 76 &77 as well as other endurance events.
Before you get scared by that figure remember that they carried heaps more fuel, spares, metal traction planks, lights, bullbars, extra bracing etc etc. I reckon you could get one down to about 900KG in tarmac spec.
To satisfy homolgation requirements they had to build a fair few road versions. I think (don't quote me on it) they had a twin cam head.

PS I know of a genuine 1756cc 124 Abarth for sale...

Paydirt
22-05-02, 07:47 PM
Wouldn't it be a Chrysler Lancer? Not sure on if they came with the 1600, but I know that the other models came with a 1400 4 speed combo. I have a 1600 in an LB Lancer with a 5 speed an it doesn't travel too bad. I think the motor is from a LC Lancer coupe. Would be interested to know about the GSR. How many were made. I've search the internet for info of Chrysler Lancer and come up with next to nothing. Maybe I'm just useless at searching.:rolleyes: :D

Paydirt
22-05-02, 07:48 PM
Sam where did that info come from?

Guido
22-05-02, 07:59 PM
From Reinhard Klein's book "rally cars". Any rally car from that era does it for me especially...you'll never guess!...

karl_2ltGC
22-05-02, 08:20 PM
this from a september 74 wheels
"...output up to around 115kw (155bhp)"
"4.65 diff"
"five speed"
"two dual throut solexes"

and there were no 1971 Galants in oz....

and if you think galants are ugly...check out this one
http://www.users.bigpond.com/leeroy.308/1975_galant.htm

or this one - blo2go!!!:D
http://www.neodude.com/rotorheads/photos/summernats15/Img_0127.JPG

http://www.neodude.com/rotorheads/photos/summernats15/Img_0631.JPG

or even my one :D
http://www.galant.8m.com

T99
23-05-02, 02:16 PM
Edo, because my dream is to enter an event where my car costs less than the entry fee :) Seriously though, I just like the underdogs. To consider that the biggest engined car I have owned was 1840cc, will tell it all. With the Lancer, I should get a decent handicap (PPI) too.

There doesn't need to be a Galant in Australia, I just need to be able to find some homologation papers or manufacturer info. The Lancer idea came about because I saw a tarted one up on the road (you know the normal dumped, 17" wheels, large tailpipe look) and remembered that they were a good rallycar of that era. And certainly they cannot be that expensive to track down a bodyshell. Unlike the Ford RSs of the same era, the bodyshell was roughly the same. Another car I am thinking about is a Datto 120Y (Sunny) for the late 70s, early 80s. Came out in Australia with the 1400cc (A14??) engine I think, but Nissan used this to contest rallies with other engines in them. Another light, nimble and relatively quick car.

Have a look at http://www.mitsubishi-motors.co.jp/motorsports/history/70s/lancer_1600gsr.htm for what I was thinking of.

Golf GTi was top of my list originally, but I got sick of trying to find a good one. Lots of crap around, and most seem to have changed a lot of parts (ie engine). I need a fairly stock item because they didn't homologate very much.

itsnotagsr
23-05-02, 02:25 PM
one word.... "Escort".

HoonBoy
23-05-02, 02:48 PM
The standard LA lancer was about 850kg stock and had a 1.4 and 4 speed, a 5 speed was an option later on. A 2 litre version was available in Japan from what I have been told but am unabel to prove anything.

The twincam engine was from the Galant GTO-MR, it came with twin 48mm solex's, 5 speed and 4.22:1 diff gears, if it's allowed it will all bolt in. I can tell you this for sure as I have the bits sitting around waiting for my shell to come back from being resprayed ( you reading this Dave?? ;) ) They have a lot of nice bits to them CLICK HERE (http://www.geocities.com/hoonboy_au/engine/engine.htm) or look there <<<<---------------

Finding a good shell is becoming hard, they can suffer from rust pretty badly if not looked after.

Galant1
24-05-02, 02:23 AM
Karl,

What do you mean that there are no 1971 Galants? I have about 4 of them:D in various states, and my ex has a GB. 1971 Galants were GA with single rectangle headlights and then 1972-1973 GB Galants with twin round headlights (Both GA and GB are same shape). GC Galants changed shape and were around 1974(i think) to 1975 with single round and then '76 to '77 was GD with twin round headlights. If you follow the sequence the late '70's Sigmas followed on from Galant. Hence the GE Sigma. Also they had Galant under the boot strip which had Sigma on it (from memory).


Any other questions I can try to help you with feel free to ask.

Thanks

Galant1

edo
24-05-02, 10:40 AM
T99, George Fury drove a very tough 120Y in the last Group G era Alpine rally...and won. From a very vague memory it had a FJ20 2.4 in it from a 240RS. Is Targa seriously going to let you run a 120Y???

Itsnotagsr, I doubt Ted wants to spend the required $150K to be up there with the Cavali/Kyriakidys (sp?) Mk1 escorts. A MK2 RS 2000 isnt probably a bad idea but I know bits can get very spendy with all the trick homologated parts.

T99
24-05-02, 03:33 PM
Edo, if I can prove heritage, then I have a good chance. Af ter all, they must like me, I have 7 pages of their 10th anniversary book with pics of our 78hp atw 1260kg car :) It must be for comedy value if nothing else.

Anyway, looks like the Lancer idea has stalled. Mitsubishi have thrown away all the microfiche on the LA and LB series Lancer, so it will be hard.

I will run a 120Y, the problem is keeping my nose clean so that I don't get protested out of it. BTW, while you are on the GMH bandwagon, remind me to tell you a story about TargaTas2002 and what people will do!

A lot of the front running cars are well into the 6 figure sums, and I definitely cannot afford that. I have no intention of winning, I just want to be able to have some fun and if I can ruffle a few feathers then good.

itsnotagsr
24-05-02, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by edo

Itsnotagsr, I doubt Ted wants to spend the required $150K to be up there with the Cavali/Kyriakidys (sp?) Mk1 escorts. A MK2 RS 2000 isnt probably a bad idea but I know bits can get very spendy with all the trick homologated parts.

$20k would get you a f'ing quick escort targa car in its class! Much better than a datto (1600 excepted!)

Don't forget your Merrick and Rosso 180B sticker! :)

karl_2ltGC
24-05-02, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Galant1
Karl,

What do you mean that there are no 1971 Galants? I have about 4 of them:D in various states, and my ex has a GB. 1971 Galants were GA



I thought they started from 72 in oz.

i know they were first released in 1969 in Japan.

rowdytoot
24-05-02, 08:05 PM
itsnotagsr..

Well if you are gunna be up against Kyrikidis, then you need about 220 - 240 hp, and about 750- 800 kg dry weight if you can do that and make it handle and stop like a race car for 20 K, then you must be a magician.. , in which case come and build my rally car.. :D

I had a damn good look over Peters car at Classic Adelaide and it's basically a full house race car... no expense spared at all.

For 20K you'd get an FIA approved cage (5K at least), a car, a warm motor-- say 150 -160 hp, , decent( but not great brakes) and some suspension, but your still going to have a leaf spring rear end..

Isn't looking too competitive is it .. :(

R

Turbo4WD
24-05-02, 08:38 PM
Hey Ted I Had a freind with one of thoes Lancers.

Quote: It performs like a volkswagen, bols smoke like and old diesel, has the fuelk concumption of a V8 and the sound of a tractor :) - Yep the worst of everything.

He brought it from a guy who cliamed it had a reconditioned engine. Anyway the car ended up being stolen from the guys driveway (not far from you ted) and found burt out in the goodna bush.

So if you do buy one ted don't lave it in your driveway - Anyway that said I reckon you could make it go real well and I really like the idea as the car is a bit diferent like you said and it would be really good doing it in a cheap but obscure jap car.

If you want something more modern but thats cheap maybe a capri (the chop top). For some reason the targa organisers love them and I reckon if you got a turbo one and tweaked it it would be quick enough to get a good place. It would bruise a few ppls ego's being beaten by a (aussie) capri ;)

Another interesting (but forgoten) car is the Starion. They were Japans first hi-po sports car and did really well in the Australian group E series and also at Bathurst setting a speed record down conrod.

If you want a really slow car that _looks_ fast then maybe a Fiat X1/9 - At the time they were described as a mini ferarri and of course Bertone styled and italian powered.

itsnotagsr
24-05-02, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by rowdytoot
itsnotagsr..

Isn't looking too competitive is it .. :(

R

OK, maybe you won't beat someone with 150gs to play with, but a galant won't come even near it!

An esky is a good solid bit of kit and heaps of parts/upgrades are available.

Do you want to win or have something which will serve you well and get you to the end fairly quickly?

karl_2ltGC
24-05-02, 08:58 PM
i think secoh has a few years of LA Lancer rallying expierience....

what car does this Kyrikidis have???

rowdytoot
24-05-02, 09:27 PM
Karl,

its a Mk1 Escort , with an 1800 cc BDA-- so twin cam 16 valve.. engine in it.. ( basically what the works spec Mk1 rally cars ended up with) but it's insanity on wheels.. :D

R

rowdytoot
24-05-02, 09:28 PM
itsnotagsr..

Fair call.. :D

T99, a couple of the guys on www.bmsc.com.au rally LA lancers.. they'd know the in's and outs I'd reckon.. check the forums..

R

karl_2ltGC
24-05-02, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by rowdytoot
Karl,

its a Mk1 Escort , with an 1800 cc BDA-- so twin cam 16 valve.. engine in it.. ( basically what the works spec Mk1 rally cars ended up with) but it's insanity on wheels.. :D

R

arghhh!

Can you 'lighten' the cars???

Cos the rpw drag galant weights like 700kgs...
thats ran a 12.920 @ 103 mph
15/01/02 - Version 8 Motor dyno'd at 167hp @ 6700 rpm rear wheels with muffler and running rich (Un tuned for muffler) - Motorvation 2002 Show

http://www.rpw.com.au/New%20Website/DragCar/DC001.htm


yea i know its a drag car, and its a 2.6...but hey its making 'some' power

rowdytoot
24-05-02, 10:14 PM
Yes Karl you can lighten them... Alloy everthing for suspension..

Eskies you could get alloy diff housing as i recall..

stripped of everything you don't need..

Edo, T99, can you run fibreglass guards on the things in Targa etc ?? I don' think so, but have read that some rally knutters thin the guards... to make em lighter...

/cue the waiter from the Meaning of Life

"It's waiiiffer thin...."


R

Turbo4WD
25-05-02, 02:44 PM
In the trading post there is a TR7 with a 13B turbo :)

Cheap too - less than the entry fee ;)

Guido
25-05-02, 04:13 PM
I think that people are forgetting that it is "historic" rally car ie strict rules, no Starions and no (ahhhhhh) Capri's.

20k might buy you a BDA engine, you still need the rest of the car (quaife box and baby atlas, 5 link rear end, quick rack, group III stuts-there's another 20k).

The rules pretty much stipulate that you have to run as they did in their day. Thats means no bigger motors (I think the mentioned Mk1 is now illegal as they only ran 1.6BDA's in that shape), no efi or turbo's, no 16" wheels with AP's etc etc. A quick car would be a TR7 with the 3.5l in it, the work's cars had around 300HP and one ran in the top 10 in Targa a few years back.

But I dare say that Ted has it pretty sussed as to what he can and can not run in such rallies. When you refer to the 120Y, you don't mean the later model Violet (what we called a Stanza) with the twin cam 16valve head?? I never thought that Nissan rallied the 120Y, at least not internationally.

karl_2ltGC
25-05-02, 04:32 PM
if rpw can get there 2 door galant with a 2.6l astron motor(read heavy bitch motor) down to 700kgs or so....with fibreglass fron bumper, NO interia/dash, some plexiglass sidewindows, removed fueltank ect...i reckon you coud have a lancer down to 700kgs...maybe even less dry!!

So youd have about 700kgs and a deescent worked saturn 1.6 motor could have a good 160hp :D With the twin cam head, you might find another 20 or so...thats ALMOST 200hp!

Only prob with galant/lancer is the availibilty of performance parts(there are none) so i guess the esky would prolly be easier in that respect, and hey if you dont mind pommy cars ;)

Jim
25-05-02, 06:28 PM
Okay, I rallied an LB lancer (77) in the '94 group 7 series, finishing 6th outright and 3rd in class. I like lancers :D

The LA came to Oz late '73 early '74, and was only available here as a 1.4L 4sp manual. Aparently being available as a 1.6L and 5sp in the LB's and only overseas, particuarly japan and the US.

There were NEVER any factory 2.0L lancers in sedan form, but the lancer hatchbacks were available in the non balanceshaft 2.0L astron in japan and the US ('77 to '79). we only got the 1.6L version here, likewise with the 2.0L galant, overseas only (70 to 78, GA to GD). (the GE Galant was the first sigma, called here the Galant Sigma..LOL...it was only 1.6 too, later GE's were only called the sigma and came out 1.6, 1850 and 2.0. the 2.6 didnt arrive until the GH)

I had a set of homologation papers,l but gave them away with the car, however a copy is available on request from CAMS for a nominal fee.

Ron Masing at Coltspeed Meadowbank (sydney) also has a copy for viewing only.

In the homologation papers for the lancers LA to LB (LB hatch and LC were never homologated for motorsport) it lists being available for production classes twin downdraught solex carbs (they are around, just a bit rare, came on import engines in the '80's), 2 exhaust manifold types (4 into 2 into 1, square port, good , and 4 into 1 round port, crap), 4sp or 5sp manual gear boxes, single piston disc brake front, and drum rear.

(incidently, a mate has the original car used for homoligation here in oz, curtrently a group c tourer)

Engine sizes homologated are the 1.4L and 1.6L chain drive engines. The belt drives arent listed as they were from later vehicles, not 70's lancers, but you wouldnt want one anyway...LOL

The rally cam is called a factory Number 5, and the circuit cam is a Factory Number 4 (from memory) these are very lumpy cams, sound great with webers! heheh

Interestinly enough some of the '70's cams polotics shows up in the homologation papers for lancers. The original papers show a twin cam head for the saturn engine, along with extractors and side draught twin solexes. this is the GSR setup, and was used on the Galant GTO as well. Also some bolt on fibreglass flares SLR5000 style are shown as being homologated.

But the head of cams at the time was something to do wth the datsun oz teams and marked the twin cam head, side draughts, extractors and flares as "GROUP 2 (Or Group C...cant remember) ONLY" with big black texta (real professional, huh). So any copy of cams stuff shows this still, so you can have problems running this setup in a production class.

However, a number of pre-mutilated homologation papers are around, and if you get yourself a copy, you can run all this gear and fend off any protests.

The twin cam head was only 8 valves but had a better angle, but extra performance was minimal. Ive only ever seen one of these engines in the flesh here in oz.

Also, ralliart Oz made some LSD diff centres, with 4.6:1 ratios. The stock lancer is 3.8:1, and galant wagon was 4.2:1. 1300 Galant wagon (GA) was 4.6:1 but a small centre, and quite fragile.

I was lucky enuff to have a ralliart LSD diff in my lancer even though the gears were stuffed.

At the time forged pistons were not available for the 1.6L saturn, but they were for 1705 and 1770 engines, so if you find a 4G32 with forgies, its probably 1705cc. You can in fact bore the 1.4L (4G33) and 1.6L out to 1.8L safely, so theres a lot of 1600cc lancers that arent 1600cc's out there :p

T99
28-05-02, 03:56 PM
The events I am interested in run to FIA rules, not PRC. So it means homologated the whole way. There are some dispensations, but by and large it will be a production (be it homologated rally special) based.

The 120Y I was thinking of was called a Sunny here I think, but not the original one (I describe it as a mini 240K).

The problem with building a Escort RS is that the bodyshell is altered on the works cars, so you are immediately up for some major costs and bodyshells don't come easy. Yes, you could always get a std one and get fibreglass panels (flared guards etc) but you are still up against the very best of those examples in the well built RS1600s. Same with the early 911, there are some great RSR and RS examples around as there are some simple 911S/911Ts that you could build into RSR replicas, but they would cost as much as an original when you are done.

The beauty of the cars I am thinking of is that it should allow me to be halfway competitive for a fraction of the budget.

Another way out thought of mine was a Hillman Hunter GT!

floody
28-05-02, 05:11 PM
G'day,
the lancers/galants sound a bit iffy to track down, and the escorts sound like they will cost you mega money, so my idea is grab a ke20 corolla and build yourself a TE-27(?) levin. A 2TG with the right solexes and g'box would be easy to come by at a jap wreckers, and not too expensive, and the car could be found in good nick (e.g good shell) for very little money. as the interior etc is mostly going, rip it out and trcak down gen levin bits like dash, speedo tacho....get the little flares they had, perch it on 15*6 or 7 minilite style alloys and semi slicks, fibreglass bonnet , boot lid, and maybe alloy doorskins, and you would have a very light, quick car once the suspension and brakes were sorted 9maybe use "parts bin" bits like sleeka struts and landcruiser calipers)
thats my idea. Also why wouldn't they let group g type cars run in targa? is it because fj24 engined 120y and various dazda 1600s would be a little too quick for the lawyers and dentists in their stupid-money porsches?....I bet there is a shake up since the datto got on podium this year!
cheers,
floody

mrhoochie
28-05-02, 07:17 PM
You're not referring to this 120y are you?

Guido
28-05-02, 10:35 PM
The mini 240k is the Datsun Violet 160J (710). Later on the Violet name was used to describe a sedan version which was the equivalent of the Australian Stanza.
Initially homolgated with a 1428cc but eventually competed with a 1770cc (L18 I presume) with a claimed 160HP. They developed a 16valve head for it and claimed (somewhat optimistically) 260HP. The weight was 980kg for safari rallies and down as far as 870kg for other rallies.
I really don't like your chances of getting one of these shells in Aus though. You be muck luckier in replicating a later version Violet 160J sedan (PA10) that was homolgated with a 1952cc (L20 I guess) motor with 190HP and a solid rear axle with coils. Due to FIA banning 16valve heads at the end of 1977 for group 2 cars it was back to being 8valve. The weight was now up to 980kg.
Later on they homolgated the Violet GT. It was a group 4 car based on the last one with a 16valve head, 230HP and 1040KG.

I found an escort bargain on the weekend too, with all the right bits!!!

T99
29-05-02, 03:18 PM
Thats the kind of 120Y, or even the later model ones. The car in that ad did not sound like a factory model though.

I see no one has jumped at the Hillman Hunter idea. I wonder if an early Gemini would be considered? Or an early Alfa Guilia Sprint, or just the 4 door Guilia.

A main reason why some cars are not allowed (or rather a poor handicap results) is that it becomes very difficult to police such a category, what with the cars being over 20 years old. A lot of new parts are fabricated etc, and eventually it will become the guy with the most money wins. Not to say that is not the case now, but it gives the budget punters some hope still.

Raynman
29-05-02, 06:22 PM
Problem with those 120Ys is it depends on what you can do to/with the engine - homologated blocks and bore+stroke etc?

Unless I'm mistaken they only ever came with the A12 engine, which modified is pretty good but standard very poor.

Depends on your rules.

Grumpy Rooster
29-05-02, 07:06 PM
Not sure if these Gemini's qualify or not.

CDT GEMINI HERE (http://www.chevettes.com/showroom.php?section=au&page=2)