View Full Version : What Injection on a 13B ??
Okay techically minded people, please bear in mind i've never had an aftermarket injection system... ;)
Over the summer break i'd like to put fuel injection on my 13B bridgeport RX-7, my problem is i'm unsure what system to run.
I've heard that many varying opinions, i may as well hear from people who have good, bad, or ugly experiences !!
The options so far are:
* Motec
* MicroTech
* Haltech
What do you guys think ??
Thanks in advance,
Paul...
Clark-E
17-07-02, 09:40 PM
depends on how much you want to spend..
Microtech and Haltech are in Simlar price pool
Motec is more expensive
It's been seen time and time again that M/T is very effective on Rotors.. so that's somethign to keep in mind..
also tuners.. who tunes what in your area?
Clark-E, thanks for the reply.
The car will be tuned by MazSport at Seven Hills.
I see the cars at the front run MicroTech but i keep hearing they are shit ?? What's the story ??
bahaimus
18-07-02, 11:49 AM
Fatboy,
I used to run a Microcrap on my old beemer with a decent sized cam in it. It was ****ing shithouse. But that was a street car as well. Poor resolution. Poor drivability and abysmal fuel economy.
I expect it would be even worse on a bridge port rotor. I ditched it and lashed out on an Autronic. Much better.
They might be more acceptable on a turbo car as they are a lot more well behaved, but for a NA ported/cammed motor I'd spend the extra money even if it is for a race car. I think there is definitely more to be had on an NA car from the better tuning.
Thanks mate, it's good to hear from personal experience... ;)
Any other thoughts out there ??
10sec_rx7
22-07-02, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by bahaimus
Fatboy,
I used to run a Microcrap on my old beemer with a decent sized cam in it. It was ****ing shithouse. But that was a street car as well. Poor resolution. Poor drivability and abysmal fuel economy.
I expect it would be even worse on a bridge port rotor. I ditched it and lashed out on an Autronic. Much better.
They might be more acceptable on a turbo car as they are a lot more well behaved, but for a NA ported/cammed motor I'd spend the extra money even if it is for a race car. I think there is definitely more to be had on an NA car from the better tuning.
why didnt you use tps as the input instead of the map sensor???
10sec_rx7
22-07-02, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by FatBoy
Clark-E, thanks for the reply.
The car will be tuned by MazSport at Seven Hills.
I see the cars at the front run MicroTech but i keep hearing they are shit ?? What's the story ??
Bill uses microtech, so why not get a microtech, if the front running cars are running them they cant be bad then aye??
there is nothing wrong with the way a microtech will run any car, people run them on PP's and bridges every day of the week.
bahaimus
22-07-02, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by 10sec_rx7
why didnt you use tps as the input instead of the map sensor???
Thats a fair question. The model Microtech I had had only 4 throttle position settings if I recall correctly. It was a very early Digi 2 Pro. It was sent back to have the previous models software installed with greater TPS resolution, but no go. So there was very little choice available.
It coudn't be tuned lean enough and I ended up removing it after the bores glazed. The oil was like water when I drained it. And that was only a couple of thousand k's.
This has left a bitter taste in my mouth about the product. It may well be the case that the product has improved. But I'll never be prepared to find that out....
MrGenius
22-07-02, 11:44 AM
Out of them 3 id take the Haltech.
Just for reference
RPM Sites x Load
Haltech = 704
Motec = 840 (pro series)
Microtech = 256
Autronic = 512
These numbers relate to the tunability of each system.
FatBoy, like you have to ask!
Forget the Microstress, the only front running car using it gets blown stupid every time the serious players come out.
All the quickest clubcars run MoTeC, doesnt that tell you something! The circuit is where the MoTeC comes into its element and the data logging helps with everything from driving techniques to suspension set up.
Originally posted by 10sec_rx7
Bill uses microtech, so why not get a microtech, if the front running cars are running them they cant be bad then aye??
there is nothing wrong with the way a microtech will run any car, people run them on PP's and bridges every day of the week.
Bill's 808 coupe circuit car was actually using an Injection Perfection set up ??
AVENGE: Marty, it's tight arse Tuesday... i just thought if i could get something half the price that does the job say 95% as well it would be an option... ;)
Not a rotary experience, but something to add to the pot.
A mate has one of those Haddad 355 Group A strokers and I helped him fit and tune a E6GM Haltech. The thing made great power but was a pig. Around town drivability sucked. We swapped from MAP to TPS but it made very little difference, and we could just never get the stepping motor right.
To cut a long story short, he ended up shipping the lot down to Melbourne to be tuned and when it came back, there was no noticable improvement. It seemed to me that the resolution and/or processing speed wasnt able to quickly respond to the tempermental needs of a wild N/A motor. But it's only my wild guess.
With my limited ecperience with aftermarket ECM's, it seems that they all are able to make the same peak power (just like a carby with 1/500ths less adjustments) it's in the resolution and functionality where the decision needs to be made.
my 2c
10sec_rx7
23-07-02, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by FatBoy
Bill's 808 coupe circuit car was actually using an Injection Perfection set up ??
It would be using injection perfection throttle bodies, probably 55mm down draft, injection perfection use microtech computers.
bill uses microtech and tunes them everyday, speek to him he will tell you what to use, he built your engine and he would not put one on it if it was going to make less power.
As i said before microtech's have been used on BP ans PP's hundreds of times and run them fine.
To change your car to injection is a simple job. im ausming you have a weber on it, just unbolt it, bolt on a injection perfection throttle body throw some injectors in it ( not knowing the power maybe 2 13b turbo or if thats not enough 4) bosch fuel pump and use your current pump to fill a surge tank, done, you can even use your air filter you have now, 99% sure it will bolt onto the throttle body!
its a easy dude, the most expansive bits are the computer (MTX8 with coils retails at $1195 but im sure bill will look after you) im not sure how much a throttle body is worth, but i think they are less than a $1000, 2 injectors $150, big fuel pump $400, surge tank $120 and a tune and your off.
You should have a talk to Rohan Ambrose from Guru racing. he is leading the victoran improved production championship in his 13b Bp RX7 and supplies many of the EFI systems in his class
Call Rohan on 039782-5998
http://www.gurumotorsports.com/
10 sec RX-7... Yeah, Bill is happy to fit it with a MicroTech but i'm not convinced... as Marty said the majority of the cars in our championship are MicroGuessed, and when the Motec boys (Qld and Vic cars) come out to play our guys get wiped...
I've also heard reports of cars going backwards powerwise when fitted with MicroTech... whether thats fact or fiction is another thing...
I'm trying to price up a Motec at the moment but some bastard won't answer their phone (Marty!!) :p
Thanks for the input so far guys... ;)
FatBoy, better add $250 to that quote i just gave you! :)
For the injectors and fuel rail ?? :p
KIL 510
25-07-02, 06:19 PM
Hillborn injection should do the trick:) :) :)
Yeah,Bill(mazsport) uses microtech NOW,but what did he use before???
he used a Haltech.
I know this cause i use to go to him when i had a microtech and he was always bagging it and telling me to buy a Haltech,he is the ONE that was saying microtech is shit.
And look at him now,he deals with microtech mostly,i believe he had some arguement with Haltech and thats why he doent use it anymore.
Get a Haltech and get it tuned by the Hitman.
Mazsport ditched Haltech because the 3 main cars using the system went to MoTeC and picked up about 10% top end power and 25% mid range power. Dont believe me! The cars were
Mark Phelans RX-7
John Ballards RX-7
Col Mathews RX-7
And how do i know this!
I supplied all 3 systems and engine dynoed 2 of them! And i still have the dyno sheets to prove it! On the chassis dyno it was a joke how much more torque the MoTeC made. Not to mention the cars stopped over heating and started winning races!
Mazsport will supply any brand computer, but the only ones people seem to want are Microtech and MoTeC.
Looks like if the $$$ are right Motec is the go then...
I priced that new MicroTech Marty and it's not really "that" much cheaper once you figure in the other bits and pieces... ;)
Hook me up a bargain, and remember, i know where you live... :p
That explains the Snail trail in the gutter! :):)
AVENGE,
i believe ya,i was just saying what he used to use.
I would swap to a MoTeC also ,anytime of the day(i have a E6K),if i had the money and one day i hope i do:D
Until that day,there are only 3 ecu's that i would use and they are
MoTeC
Autronic
Haltech
Originally posted by AVENGE
Mazsport ditched Haltech because the 3 main cars using the system went to MoTeC and picked up about 10% top end power and 25% mid range power. Dont believe me! The cars were
Mark Phelans RX-7
John Ballards RX-7
Col Mathews RX-7
And how do i know this!
I supplied all 3 systems and engine dynoed 2 of them! And i still have the dyno sheets to prove it! On the chassis dyno it was a joke how much more torque the MoTeC made. Not to mention the cars stopped over heating and started winning races!
Mazsport will supply any brand computer, but the only ones people seem to want are Microtech and MoTeC.
hmmmm...that's an interesting side of the story i have never heard about Haltech. Thanks for telling me that Avenge, but why do mags like Zoom rave on about Haltech? I'm keen to know as one day i'm going to have to buy an ECU for the 808 and i want to know what to get.
Cheers;)
The_Hitman
28-07-02, 08:06 PM
Ahhhhh Marty, you select your facts on those cars.
All had mechanical changes before you saw them with considerable work on intake design and a change in exhaust. They were running second hand 1993 spec Haltech F9 systems with a distributor and amoung the change to Motec was a switch to ignition control and direct fire.
I would say go with the Motec first, then Haltech, then MT. The MT will do OK if all you want is WOT and idle, but the off-idle areas and light throttle are where you will loose out to Motec and Haltech. Haltech also have a new high-end system due in a couple of months that may be worth checking out.
Matt, I think you are forgeting that when those cars went to MoTeC Haltech was unable to control the ignition. They have since figured out how to do it.
Marks car had no Mechanical changes on the initial change over and you know it! Later we changed the intake etc. Johns car only changed recently when he went to a different intake system.
Cols car stayed identical up until around a year ago when he fitted a quad throttle body set up and a new spec engine.
Its not a case of me stating selected facts, its your selected memory lose!:)
Originally posted by AVENGE
That explains the Snail trail in the gutter! :):)
Reminds you of where you have just been huh ?? :p :p
Thanks for the advice by the way, it seems funny how no-one else can give a definite price for an all inclusive set up... (ie... throttle body, injectors, ECU, etc...)
Looks like i'll just have to bite the bullet and pay the extra for Motec... i figure if i ever sell the RX-7 i'll get a lot more back for the Motec anyway... ;)
And one more... should i go 55 or 51 ?? :worship:
What does Grumpe use? He's got a 55 doesn't he?
I thought quads were THE way to go?
Can any of the club-car kiddies tell me what the story is with power delivery from quad TBs? What size do you use? And trickyness with running them sequentially or anything like that?
The new rally car is getting MTX8 with the usual 50mm twin TBs - is it worth the extra to go to quad TBs? I know they seem to be one of the differences between the ultra fast guys and the rest, but...
Suggestions?
The_Hitman
29-07-02, 08:45 PM
Remembering back 3 years...
Marks car did get changes and part of the reason why it was switched over was because I got sick of answering to Hill Billy's beck and call for free so it never got tuned, and they wanted ignition control which could have been done but they would have still had the tuning issues. Having him call sometimes at midnight wanting work done before race day was giving me the shits.
Same happened with Ballards with an exhaust change that never got re-tuned.
Col's car is one I last saw around 1998 before he got serious and did the airbox with injectors over the trumpets and wanting datalogging and ignition control.
Not arguing, stating facts. You weren't there all the time.
Will see you down at Heathcote so we can duel it out. Will be there on AJC's beck and call. :-)
Originally posted by The_Hitman
Will see you down at Heathcote so we can duel it out. Will be there on AJC's beck and call. :-)
If i was you i would be staying at home! AJC told me last night his car is running fine! I think he only wants you there for sexual favours!:):)
And i refuse to believe Bill would want something done for free!:)
Originally posted by mr808
What does Grumpe use? He's got a 55 doesn't he?
He's got a 51mm Weber at the moment, the same wonderful technologically advanced tool i use...:p
Spac: A few of the guys have quads, not sure but they are the ducks guts apparently...
Grumpe is going that way at the end of the season, he has some Motec gear left over from his drag racing days... ;)
The_Hitman
30-07-02, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by AVENGE
If i was you i would be staying at home! AJC told me last night his car is running fine! I think he only wants you there for sexual favours!:):)
And i refuse to believe Bill would want something done for free!:)
he he he , on both accounts.
Yeah , AJC's car is fine and I am not really needed. But with Steve getting greedy and always wanting more I can see more boost and flat shifting being wanted and we will set it up there.
May even resort to antilag if he wants..... up to him.
I think he also wants to log AF during the runs with the UEGO, and I may try shifting the timing up and down by 1 degree to see the effect at the track, and also try the same with fuel by 1 or 2%.
Anyway, CYA there.
So how is your car coming along Hitman?
Hmmmmmm, the old dedate.....
Ever wonder why MoTeC is the INDUSTRY STANDARD.....????
95% of the V8 Supercar Teams couldn't be wrong... ;)
MAKE MINE A MOTEC ANYDAY
Originally posted by Grumpe
Hmmmmmm, the old dedate.....
Ever wonder why MoTeC is the INDUSTRY STANDARD.....????
95% of the V8 Supercar Teams couldn't be wrong... ;)
MAKE MINE A MOTEC ANYDAY
Grumpe's shout, motecs for all!:) :) :)
The_Hitman
07-08-02, 02:31 PM
Car should be on the road within a month.
Cool! Any power estimates?;)
Motec all the way, i am very happy with it and the data logging of course :)
Fatboy - I run an injected J port with a twin 55mm TB and 4 1010cc injectors, built by Quickmaz (Chris Bromage) he casts these TB's and manifolds.
If you want to spend the cash go Motec. MT does the job quite well for turbo rotors but doesnt have the advanced tuning features to get the hp out of NA rotors. Have a look at the new EMS it would be the best value. I think a grand for ECU and harness.
Cheers
BigJ
Big J, that's the kind of info i wanted to hear !! ;)
Is there a site with more info on the EMS ??
I'll probably end up with a Motec, but $$$ will be a factor... i'll only race maybe 8 times a year, so i'm weighing up dollar for fun...
If it was a street car, i wouldn't hesitate with the Motec...
Cheers,
Paul...
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