Compatibility of VT sensors with Autronic SMC

[silver_ice]

Hi there

Had a VT injected motor with all the sensors in my VH

Have now rebuild the thing, a fairly wild aspirated combo.

Im seriouslllly considering going to an Autronic, simply because of the lack of people willing to tune the VT delco ,which is meant to be some super version with sequential injection and all that. Also, I wanna change to TPS/MAP load sensing as I will the VT AFM is too restrictive. Also, the AutoTune feature appealed to me.

What I need to know is, what sensor would I need to change if I bought an Autronic. As I said, I have all the factory sensors atm, TPS, IAC, 2 x Bosch 4 wire O2 sensor (i think) etc etc


Also, what are everyones thoughts on the Autotune. My plan was basically install the Autronic, fire it up then with AutoTune, drive down to ChipTorque or somewhere for some further initial fine tuning? With the AutoTune work that well?

Thanks

[felixblack1]

good info at:

http://www.turbofast.com.au/autronic/smcecu.html

you should be able to keep your bosch 4 wire sensor and tps. that's the limit of my knowledge

ask riceracing@ozemail.com.au
he know his stuff when it comes to autronic

[elfturbomax]

If you have a manual gearbox you don't need any new sensors, you will only need to fit the air temp sensor that comes with the Autronic, the other factory sensors will fit directly.

If you have an electronic auto you will need to keep the delco ecu to drive that which means you will need an extra coolant sensor for the Autronic.

What injectors were you intending to use and where are you getting the ecu from.

[silver_ice]

THanks mate for that info

Luckily Im using an early model t700 converted to non lockup so I dont need sensors there.

I have soem ford motorsport 30lb'ers to go in and will be getting the autronic some chiptorque

What is your opinion on the effectiveness of auto tune?

[KDog]

Surely you can find someone able to tune the Delco ECU. It will be a superior performer to the any aftermarket ECU.
Have you talked to Leon at Awesome Automotive? Even though he's in SA he may still be able to help.

[felixblack1]

does anyone know how much the upgrade cost to AutoTune?

[silver_ice]

nah as soon as they hear "VT Sequential injection delco" they all run and hide

[Delco]

nah as soon as they hear "VT Sequential injection delco" they all run and hide

wimps :rolleyes: Bring it over to the West and I will sort it.

Or convert to VR MAP and get them to remap it.

Autronic is great BUT a lot of dollars for no power return over your delco IMHO

[silver_ice]

well, I wanna convert my AFM to a MAP sensor - both use 3 wires, I suppose if I could figure out which wire goes to which pin, I've been told that the ECU can be changed to recognise the MAP inputs as opposed to the AFM.


The AFM will be far to restrictive for my needs, I am using a COME TTB - so answer me this

"Can I rewire the AFM wiring to use a MAP sensor and can this change be made in the ECU? "

THanks

[Delco]

Not quite as easy as that BUT there is a workshop version of kalmaker I have that will allow us to tune like that with a map sensor.

Easier to wire the car up as a VS II ( originally map input)

[silver_ice]

Delco, can u email me - danielg@workd.net

I have been spun so much bullshit on this topic, I dont know where to start

I have the VT setup, so I wanna use the VT setup, not change it

[elfturbomax]

I believe that VS V8's are group fire (not sequential) injection. If you go back to that you will lose mid range torque, that is a certainty.

If you engine is going to be cammy with low vacuum at medium throttle openings I don't think the Delco will have sufficient sites / resolution for a nice result.

You had the correct idea initially, throttle / pressure mapping. Also the idle stepper motor motor won't be happy with a cammy engine, the response will be too slow.

If you are in Brisbane, why don't you try Carb-N-Ject, they are an Autronic dealer (CT get Autronic from SAS in Syd I think).

[Delco]

Elf the GM software also has tps/map /boost mapping with a switchover anywhere if you are prepared to set it up , sequential is only a very mild benefit for emmisions waste of time over about 2000rpm.

GM software mappable every 200rpm if you want and every 5 kpa - what more resolution could you ask for.

300deg + duration cams have been no problem so far:D

[elfturbomax]

Delco, you have misunderstood the throttle / pressure mapping. The Autronic does not change between the two as it looks like you imply the Delco can. You can use either throttle or pressure mapping or throttle - pressure mapping which is pressure mapping with compensation according to throttle position. Motec can also do this with its secondary fuel table.

You use it if you are going to have very similar manifold pressures over a range of throttle positions. From Silver Ices description I would expect that his engine may have a map of about 97kpa at 30% throttle and 100kpa from 50% throttle, with obviously a vastly different fuel requirement between there and 100% throttle because of the restriction to the airflow from throttle position. A Delco with 5kpa increments wont help there. If you throttle map the engine you cannot use a conventional idle motor because as the throttle doesn't open with extra idle air there wont be any enrichment. If you throttle / pressure map the change in vacuum with an idle motor will be seen by the ecu.

As for sequential injection only being any good under 2000 rpm all I can say is that you must have had it wired up in the wrong order. With a V8 Holden the difference is very noticable to after peak torque. For example, at 3000rpm on a 4 stroke engine you have 20msec per crank revolution and 40 msec per cycle for each cylinder. If your injection pulse length is 5 or even 10 msec you have a lot of room to move the pulse around to get it correct, which will be a big difference to group fire firing randomly at different cylinders. The only time group and sequential are the same is at high rpm with big injector duty cycles (ie. when the injector is just big enough).

[simon010]

off topic (slightly)

does anyone out there know if the vt type ecu's all have wheel speed inputs, and if so is it possible to use this as traction control mechanism - would be much cheaper than motec/autronic.

what software is available to tune the delco ecu?

everything i have read suggests this is an excellent ecu with a lot of output functions

thanks

simon

[brockvk]

go with the autronic computer it is far better than any delco and the auto tune is very quick way of tuning it can be fully tuned from start in less than 2 hours . the autronic is also full Sequential
so you may need larger injectors 30lbs are small for a big engine {more than 400fwhp}. i use boshe 363 60lbs injectors they work well with autronic

[silver_ice]

we have calculated they will be fine at an elevated pressure, which we have designed the fuel system around

you dont want to over inject and get sloppy down low throttle response

[Hooter]

Hi Silver Ice, I think you emailed me a while back on my website at www.kalmaker.com.au I only found this tonite. Its quite interesting some of the comments, but its also a worry about the mis information. We use Autronics and it is very very good, as is the auto tune. We also use all the Delco's and understand how they work, which apart from Delco (above) none of the others do.
The VT computer of yours is a trick bit of gear, but its the software that makes it even better. Its not the way the software is written, or how it is presented, it is the way it works and the way it ties in with all the other sensors. If only the afternarket could suss this out the way GM does.
Anyway, what I want to know is what combo are you running?
You've stated you have Come manifold. But what cubes? What heads?What cam? What revs do you hope on making power up to??What diff ratio?? If you are only planning on 5L with reasonable cam, whats the point? You could bolt a blower on for probably cheaper and go heaps better.
Why do you want to get rid of AFM? A wild 5L will struggle to max out a 65ml AFM as far as air flow is concerned. It may max out the std factory 65ml software tables, but Kalmaker has the extended tables included from the supercharged V6 calibration that also uses same AFM. If uncertain, you can use Gen 3, 75ml AFM which Kalmaker also include extended tables from Corvette calibrations, and then theres the 85ml from the diesel. We have supercharged 5L's that dont max out 65ml AFM!!! that really boogey.
Guys only "run from sequentials" as stated above, because they dont have the software. The guys that do, love it. As Kdog above says Leon has it at Awesome Automotive. Ask him, not these other "experts". The problem you have tho', is in Brisbane I dont know of anyone with VT software. If you let me know what combo you are running, I may be able to do you a "close" calibration, and with a bit of feedback, get it pretty close.
However, I do agree with Delco above, and seeing that you have VT in a VH, I would consider changing to the earlier VN 808 ecm, especially if you are going mad on engine. There are a few shops around and near Brisbane that have Kalmaker Street Pro 3 software that can tune it for you, no sweat.
We did a comparison also with a std VT 5.7L in a VH running on 808 ecm with Street Pro 3, against a VT 5.7L HSV GTS sequential. Both with std cams, what better combo to test low down torque of non-sequential v sequential. The VH topped out with 230kw versus the VT GTS at 188kw. The VH crapped on it from start to finish on dyno graphs. We were surprised. What I'm saying is dont get too hung up on tech talk. What Elf is saying about Idle motor not injecting fuel is wrong. If idle stepper motor is moving, so is MAP sensor signal, which means so can Accel enrichment and so is transient Fuel which both can be fine tuned to suit, not to mention proportional spark. Also stepper motor speed and rate can be altered (We also understand throttle pressure mapping)
However if cam is way big, you can select Closed Throttle VE (fuel) which ignores map sensor at idle, and gives tuneable fixed pulse versus rpm. This is all that is needed to tame usually even the biggest of cams, however, if it is still an animal, you can switch to TPS mode (in Street Pro 3) either completely, or up to an adjustable rpm, and blend it in with MAP sensor, therfore retaining all transient fuel features ( must have speed sensor for this ) thus retaining famous Delco driveability. The aftermarket havent even heard of these features, let alone implement them.
The TPS mode works reasonably well on multi throttle body setups, such as converted Hilborns, or Japanese Hipo such as 4AG 20valve etc, but trouble is as you say Elf, when you just crack throttle, you get zero vac ie 100kpa MAP, this gives poor resolution with MAP sensor, and altho' TPS is better, its not great.
Well guess what??? We even have software to run AFM's ( Air Frequency Meter) on the good old VN 808 ecm.
It is very easy to setup and tune, much easier than MAP sensor. It still uses MAP sensor for all Transients. We have it on a Toyota Silver Top 4 AG 20v in a Clubman, and it works a treat, and has already claimed a few Hill Climbs. Martin Donnan eat your heart out. (see latest Zoom mag where he bags Delco) (He doesnt understand Delco either, and he used to hack chips for them.....) We have this setup on several vehicles now, and love it, and theres no reason you why you cant run it on your VT.
It seems like I'm blowing my own trumpet here, but it seemed like a good opportunity to explain a few things,and put these "experts" right. I'm not trying to start any arguements or anything, but if these guys considered looking at even the "old VN" Delco, they would be very surprised what they would learn.
BTW, 30lb injectors ideal for eg. 5.7L Crane 288 twin throtts Grp A.

[silver_ice]

Hooter - Heres the run down of the motor. If u think its suitable, I may use a VN808 ecm, buy the street pro 3 and tune it up myself

VT Block
COME 355 Billet Crank
SRP Forged Pistson
A9L rods (this is the weakest link in the motor)
Cam - havent finished speccing yet, but it is a Mechanical Roller with around 630' lift, havent finalised the duration etc yet but im using a 4000 converter in the auto with it
Heads - VT iron, ported, flowing around 520hp with standard size valves, 73% on the exhaust
Valve train has been setup to rev to 7500rpm
COME TTB manifold has twin 58 mm TB's - Im making up an intake system to match up to a pair of 65mm air cleaners
Gears at currently 3.7's, may move to 4.11's later tho

The motor is being built with around 500hp in mind

The 30lb injectors should be fine at WOT @ 60 - 65psi in the rail, which I have specced my fuel system to handle

What are you thoughts on the combo Hooter, and how do you think the 808 would go??

Would I also need to buy another loom to run the earlier PCM OR can i simply plug into the older, 2 plug computer to the new 3 plug loom??

Thanks

[silver_ice]

Also, I saw that Street Pro 3 can do the VR ECM too

Considering I am currently using a VT MANUAL harness with a VN (non electronic) T700, could I buy a VR PCM and Street PRo that, without having to change my harness (except for changing to MAP)

[Hooter]

Hi Silver Ice, I like the combo, the big lift will give big torque. Are heads still flowing at this lift? The stall is very high, considering the very low 1st gear ratio, combined with 3.7 diff. Did you know that a T700 in 1st gear with 3.25 diff is the same overall ratio as a T350 in 1st with 4.11 diff!!!!!The lower ratio you go with the higher torque, the more you will spin.....not too bad with slicks on track, but hopeless on street. Use your torque. It wins races!!!
I would suggest 3000 max. If you're running high comp, go lobe centres 106 to 108, this will give very rough high idle, but with high stall wont be too bad on street (bad enough) I assume you're going around 260 degress at 50 thou. If you plan on 110 lobe centres, keep comp under 10, especially with steel heads, otherwise cylinder pressures will be too high, resulting in not enough spark advance to make power. Running a knock sensor on this is a must. These engines spit head gaskets with the slightest knock when making real power!!!!They only have 4 studs per cylinder! Street Pro 3 has VT knock sensor logic, which means you can totally customize to ignore false knock from forged pistons, roller rockers etc. Dont get hung up on high compression........I assume you do want to use this on street....
The 30lb injectors will be marginal.....if you already have them, suck and see with your fuel pressure. We use 42lb Motorsport on on a 473hp at tyres 355 twin thrott with std fuel pressure.
The 808 with Street Pro 3 will be the best. If you dont want to change harness, I can fax you diagrams, because you will have to change the terminals pinouts in the plugs to suit ecm., and also a couple of other minor changes, including connecting the individual injector wires together....easy. Street Pro suits only the ecm from VN,VP, VR manual & VS manual. Not VR, VS auto. The autos are also wired different, but as with the VT's the terminals can be swapped to the suitable pinouts, (but this wont effect you.)
If you're confused with harness, email me with a fax no. and I'll fax VT & VN wiring diagrams so you can compare. Engine is nearly the same, but wires go to different locations at plugs, and of course only 2 plugs.
Its not the easiest engine to begin tuning with, but I can give you base calibrations from simialar radical engines. You can compare these differences in Kalmaker with std cals to see what I've changed, and from there at least you will know what maps to change. Remember Street Pro 3 has auto tune as well.
Spend some time and have a good read (there's lots)of the Kalmaker links on my web page.
Regards Hooter

[Hooter]

To Simon010, Kalmaker have software for all the Holden computers up to and including VT V8. Gen 3 is still quite a way off, maybe Xmas, but I doubt it.
We have a Workshop version for VT which is intended for use on actual VT's. We also have a new Conversion /4WD program, (see Kalmaker News on www.kalmaker.com ) that is intended for (so far) for near std engines which are to be installed into other vehicles, older Commodores, Rods etc including 4WD's. Why 4WD's??? Well one of the problems when using 4L60e trans, is the different diff ratio and tyre diameter which really stuffs up the auto's gearshift points and kickdowns, and now the tricky bit, especially when you select Low Range. We have this covered now. Why near std engines??? Well at present the software isnt to be released for sale, but all I need is details and I do a Chip for you using the software. With this package there is no need for any add on modules such as Body Control Module or Defeater. The Anti Theft has been deleted. The Lo speed Fan is now controlled by computer, that is if you use electric fans, and the dash mounted trouble light is controlled by the computer as in the VS, unlike the VT by BCM. Its much cheaper than buying the add ons.
In the not too distant future (after Gen 3) we will be releasing a new program for the VS/VT style computers that will be full house , even more so than StreetPro 3, which will run 4's, 6's and V8's, it will be sequential, it will run MAP sensor, MAF sensor or both, I believe it will be less complicated than VT (more like VN) but having 3 plugs it will have heaps more spare outputs, for all the other goodies. The VN is limited to 4 to 6 spare outputs, depending on what combo you have.
In answer to your question, we have left out Traction Control for several reasons, the main being that we dont believe it is warranted, that is, most guys want to put as much power to the ground as poss, not pull out spark to kill power to kill wheel spin ( on gravel roads....haha).
Hope this is helpful to you, and others.
Hooter

[silver_ice]

Hooter


Your cam specs sound pretty close to what were are looking at


As we are stuffing a bit of comp into this motor we are looking at around 106/108 lobe centres and going abuot 260 deg @50

Yes, the heads flow that much at around 630 - 650 lift according to the flow bench report

Street drivability, isnt realllly that much of a concern heheeh :P Like it will be driven on the street sure, but shit, I wanna have some fun while Im out there

Luckily my VT block was actually from a 195 HSV motor so the knock sensor is already there - THis is one thing that im thinking will push me back to the delco - the fact that the SMC autronic cant run the knock sensor

Oh yeh im well aware of the T700's first gear ratio and know that it will be a savage launcher, sounds like great fun to me actually ! :P

Really, trust me, I have thoroughly checked my injector flow out and definetly designed the fuel system around it. MY pump will still flow enuf volume at 70psi, so if need be, I can adjust my reg up to this and see how we go

THe Delco option is definetly appealing to me, esp cuz I can easily keep all my original sensors

Are you able to do a swap or something with me for my VT computer for a 2 plug VN computer - or do I just have to send you the actually memcal chip??

I will email my fax number as I am interested in those diagrams

Thanks

[silver_ice]

Also Hooter

Ive read and re-read the Kalmaker intro to tuning pages heaps. And the bit about Auto Fuel

WIth the Autronic, I can just punch in what AF I want at what RPM/Load site and go for a drive and it apparently just sets it in

Is this exactly the same as what I can do in the delco? or are there AF ratios for each load point already defined?? Is this adjusted in the VE table??

I would preferably just like to use the two O2 sensors in the pipes atm, they are bosch 4 pin jobbies, instead of having to use an extra wideband stuffed in one of my pipes :P

THanks

dan

[simon010]

thanks hooter

understand (a v small amount) of the additional complications re tract control - but it would then make delco/kalmaker better than top line motec/autronic and marketable to racers at a reasonable cost . . . . . . .

maybe for the next update

[Hooter]

Hi Simon010, If there is a reasonable call for it, we can include it.
Cheers Mate.

[silver_ice]

hooter u get my email with my fax number?

[Hooter]

Hi Silver Ice, I was just replying to your other 2 posts, and lost the bloody lot........2nd time now. Hate that.......I got your fax details, will send soon.
The nicest difference with our autotune is, its free. With Autronics your autotune costs extra, as does the o2 sensor, and then you need AFR meter to do it properly and quickly.
Ours works on narrow band factory sensor. It isnt as good up top end, but no big deal, as you do this on dyno anyway.
It updates the VE table. The AF table is user defined, and is commanded only, so if VE's are right, AF's are. Usually only the top end AF's need touching, if at all.
Also, if you leave our autotune switched on, it will continue to update without laptop connected. If you leave it on for a week, you would think the gauge was jammed.....its that good.
Regards
Hooter