Advice on brake pads

[imashy14u]

Hi people,

It's time for me to change my pads (front ones). I've got a turboed civic and I am currently using stock pads, which are shocking under heavy braking. I need to change the pads, but don't know which ones to use. The car is mainly driven on the road, very rarely on the track. I've had different suggestions of pads to use - Racebrakes RB74, EBC green stuff, Endless, etc. I don't know which ones to buy. I have a budget of around $200.

Can someone help me. I would appreciate the name of the pad, where to buy them and roughly how much.

Thanks alot:)

Michael.

[260DET]

Value for money performance you can't go past Bendix Metal King Plus or Ultimates in my road/sprint experience. There is a lot of brake pad snobbery around which dictates that import pads are a must. But for your sort of use either of the above would be excellent although the Ultimates do squeal a little bit sometimes.

[hotgemini]

I've become very much disillusioned with the bendix range, and before anyone mentions my employment, we also have a very good working relationship with bendix.

When you say your current brakes are 'shocking', what *exactly* do you mean? Feel, Bite, Fade?? Be specific.

[dbasteve]

RB74 for less than $200
Race Brakes


HotGemini,
I dont envy the guys at Bendix at the moment. They had a good recipe before the asbestos ban and now they have to start from scratch. They are clever guys and dedicated to making a quality product.
When Federal Mogul move in later this year maybe they can share some of the Euro Ferodo or Mintex brews.

[hotgemini]

That situation is exactly where ferodo found themselves when they decided to go asbestos-free long before the actual ban.

[260DET]

Perhaps this topic should be a 'sticky'?

Anyway, I can only relay my experience with a lot of messing around with my final version of upgraded Datsun 260Z brakes. For circuit sprints I have found that Ultimates are entirely satisfactory in all respects, when driving in city traffic there is some slight occasional squeal from the fronts. Incidentially, the Ultimates apparently stand more heat than the expensive Ferodo Racing 2500's which started to smoke and pit.

A mate of mine with a similar application changed from Ferodo 3000's to Ultimates and is also happy, although he thinks that the 3000's are slightly better. Another bloke ran his Zed in the 2003 Targa Tasmania using Ultimates on the front, which lasted the entire event, and is also happy. And he wasn't messing around either, 13th out of around 130.

[smellytofu]

Anyone have contacts and companies that distribute products such as Pagid, Ferodo etc in Australia or a web site that has a catalogue of what is available out there.

[dbasteve]

Barrie Smith Motor Sport = Pagid, Endless, Mintex
Competition Friction = Ferodo Racing
Motospecs = Formula Ferodo
Specialised Brake and Clutch = SBS (Denmark)
Race Brakes Sydney = Galfer
Race Brakes (Syd & Melb) = RB74

You won't find much in the way of catalogues though. The best method is to use a bendix calalogue and use the FMSI number for reference. All of the above except BSM & CF use Bendix "DB" numbers anyway.

[imashy14u]

Hotgemini,

When I say 'shocking', i mean that there is some bite but when they get a little hot the bite is almost gone and it fades really bad.

260DET, I heard that Bendix cause alot of wear on the discs, maybe due to the high metal compound in the pads.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Gee, never had a sticky post before:gay:

[excelboy]

I know i should call racebrakes for this info ...... but im lazy;

How do the racebrake comp2 and rb74s stack up against the competition, what pads from other major manufacturers are they comparable to?

Thanks for the help

[dbasteve]

I've always considered them as a low cost entry level performance pad. Better than normal street pads which can handle some club track days but not the same technology as the big boys, Pagid, Ferodo, Mintex, Endless, PFC.

[260DET]

Originally posted by imashy14u
Hotgemini,

When I say 'shocking', i mean that there is some bite but when they get a little hot the bite is almost gone and it fades really bad.

260DET, I heard that Bendix cause alot of wear on the discs, maybe due to the high metal compound in the pads.

Thanks for the replies guys.

Gee, never had a sticky post before:gay:

In a week or two I should be able to have a look at the rotors the Targa guy used with Ultimates. If so I'll post the results.

So far, my slotted DBA rotors are standing up well with Ultimates, some marking but no scoring. My limited experience with Metal King Plus's is that they are kind to rotors and don't squeal at all.

[excelboy]

thanks for that steve:)

[Craigus]

i am using bendix ultimates up front with slotted and cross drilled rotors (DBA). i have nothing but love for this brake upgrade. i own a vk commo and having drums at the back that pretty much do nothing my fronts get real heavy use. the original pads/rotors were shocking and i do a lot of mountain passes with heavy braking so i opted for ultimates with slotted and x drilled rotors. after a 20 mintue downhill and stopping from 160km/h+ for hair pins all i got was the rear drums squealing like mad. the pedal travel stayed the same, no smoke from the front and they kept biting time after time.

the front squeal rarely at low speeds so all round its near perfect.

thats my 2 cents.
only thing i can compare to is my old crx which has EBC green stuff pads on std rotors, after a couple of heavy stops they'd just start smoking and give up.

hope that helps

[260DET]

Couldn't inspect the rotors the Targa bloke had used with Ultimate pads, he lives in Grafton, but he is apparently still running the same setup on his Datsun 260Z in Historic races. And doing great times.

[hotgemini]

Now it will be a moot point because of the inability to produce physical evidence, but I simply can not agree with what you are saying. I've used the bendix pads for years and where alternatives are unavailable, would still happily use them but until something *very* dramatic happens to prove otherwise in every situation I've encountered they are inferior to the DS2500 and DS3000 pads for hard use.

[Bob Saget]

Originally posted by Hotgemini
Now it will be a moot point because of the inability to produce physical evidence, but I simply can not agree with what you are saying. I've used the bendix pads for years and where alternatives are unavailable, would still happily use them but until something *very* dramatic happens to prove otherwise in every situation I've encountered they are inferior to the DS2500 and DS3000 pads for hard use.

I totally agree, I've used both bendix pads and DS2500's on my commodore (VT Callipers, DBA 4000 Fr, Braided Lines, RBF600 and ducting) and the Ferodo's are in a completely different league once you really start to lean on your brakes.

The Ultimates don’t last at all, maybe 5 or 6 hard stops (on the street) and lack feel when cold, I actually use metal kings as my day to day pad because the DS2500’s and Ultimates didn’t feel good in peak hour traffic :) .

The Ferodo's on the other hand will hold out alot longer and I find I have to work pretty hard to get them to fade on the street.
.

Cheers
FaTs

[260DET]

There are more opinions on brake pads than there are on what is the best beer.:D

But if anyone wants to inspect my brakes and the Ultimates, I'll be at Morgan Park Raceway, Warwick, this coming Tuesday until mid afternoon for some badly needed driver training. There will be at least one other Ultimate braked Z there as well.

[Kinks]

I've had good experiences with QFM Special-X's. They are rated to 480 degrees, and good cold performance too. I had them on the charade and went for a strap to punish the brakes and they were still biting nice and hard even after a hiding (although charades don't weigh much!).

I had the same QFMs put on the pulsar in preparation for a track day. Went for a run to bed them in and 100-0 stops were fine, late in the session I did two in quick succession and smoke was pouring off them after the second one but they still pulled up fine! And they handled the track day perfectly (although my speeds would have been lower being a stock SSS and first time out).

[260DET]

Interesting day at 'driver training'. The other Ultimate braked Z has a big power RB30ET engine with 20 X 290 mm ventilated front rotors (no brake cooling ducts) and Nissan four spot calipers. A bit marginal in the rotor size IMHO. Anyway, he belted around the track lap after lap and succeeded in blueing his front rotors.

But the Ultimates held up perfectly. There was what appeared to be some pick up on the rotors, some slight scoring but nothing serious. Previously using Ferodo 3000's he has warped and significantly scored, but never blued, the rotors.

[dbasteve]

You'll find that the pick up is actually pad material on the rotors. If you rub your finger nail over the area you'll feel it. When cooled of course. At least it can be scrubbed off pretty easily.

[itsnotagsr]

Ive had a variety of different pads on my Evo 1. Best Ive found have beent he Pagid Blues. They take a head of punishment round a track, fine on the road, no noise, limited dust.

[F|sh]

bluing is a term for when metal reaches 400C my solid rotors on my gem are that colour but now the car feels like a gem with standard brakes. When i changed from crappy pads to better pads i could tell straight away but now i cant tell. i guess im use to these.

The ds2500 i use do get a bit dust but not like the old set that went in 5 laps......

[iamfrank]

I'm not wanting to show my ignorance here, but this is the one place I have enquired about brakes and no-one has suggested (at least in a good way) EBC pads, which get at least one or two good rap's every place I enquire.

[dbasteve]

Originally posted by iamfrank
I'm not wanting to show my ignorance here, but this is the one place I have enquired about brakes and no-one has suggested (at least in a good way) EBC pads, which get at least one or two good rap's every place I enquire.

Yes, this is the secret society of EBC haters of Australia.....:D

A few years ago there were plenty of dramas with the Greens and a lot of sh!t being passed around. There has been changes made since then and I haven't heard a bad report for ages.

[hotgemini]

iamfrank: My (admittedly somewhat dated) experience with EBC was that they were an excellent sales and marketting company that also made brake pads, perhaps that has changed but I will always be a cynic.

[niggseh]

Has anyone heard of pads called Lucas?
I think Repco recently stocked these.
Was wondering if anyone had experience with these and how they compare to Bendix pads.

I'm currently running Endless (NA-Y I think) on the rear and they were great when I first got them but my fronts are now worn and the bias is screwed. Can anyone recommend pads for a S13 running 300zx calipers with stock rotors which would be used for the odd mountain run and weekend "thrash".

Initially I'd go for Endless but prices are a lil high and I wouldn't mind trying something different.

[dbasteve]

Originally posted by niggseh
Has anyone heard of pads called Lucas?
I think Repco recently stocked these.
Was wondering if anyone had experience with these and how they compare to Bendix pads.

I'm currently running Endless (NA-Y I think) on the rear and they were great when I first got them but my fronts are now worn and the bias is screwed. Can anyone recommend pads for a S13 running 300zx calipers with stock rotors which would be used for the odd mountain run and weekend "thrash".

Initially I'd go for Endless but prices are a lil high and I wouldn't mind trying something different.

Lucas is a European street pad which gives a good result in normal street use. Thay can fade pretty heavily if pushed too hard. I have the soiled undies to prove that one.
If your thrashing the car on weekends I would use the Formula Ferodo's DB1170FF for the Nissan 4 pot.

[260DET]

My lil ole Zed has those front calipers. And the Bendix Ultimates are still giving great service, tried them a few times from 200 kph+ down to 60, too. Metal Kings would be OK, a touch quieter and very kind to rotors.

[turbo-EA]

personal experience general street driving with the occasional 9.5/10th`s mountain run

metal kings on standard spec (non slotted or drilled) disc`s on EA falcon............wouldn`t stop cold, wouldn`t stop wet, squeeled a fair bit and blued the rotors. i took them out and replaced them with bendix premiums after about 7000klm i liked them that much.


premiums on standard EA rotors, bloody great! exept a bit of dust, i ran many sets of them (and should have stocked up on the old spec premiums before they stopped making them with asbestos)


premiums on DBA slotteds on same car squeal like a garbage truck when they`re cold but after a few seconds of dragging the left foot to warm them up the squeal goes away. havn`t had a chance to give them a hiding yet so the jury is still out.

[mist]

I use Endless NA-R front and rear, awesome on circuit, but a bit noisy... will be using Winmax Sport next (0-650 deg). Winmax Sport got a good review from a bloke who fitted them to his R34 GT-R on Skylines Australia. Thread is here:
http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41326

[fro]

Okay, I'll offer up my experience, but take it with a grain of salt. Everyone seems to like different things.

Car is a Datsun 180B rally car, with a dual master cylinder-pedal box-balance bar setup. It uses DBA-slotted KH Verada vented front discs all round, with VH Commodore front calipers all round, adapted to fit on the 180B struts and rear trailing arms.

I tried Metal Kings and Ultimates, and while definitely better than the standard "MasterPart" pads, still lacked bite, and would eventually fade, and if heated enough, crumble.

I then tried EBC Green Stuff pads, which worked well, but didn't retain heat, and so would be inconsistent with bits and feel throughout a rally stage.

I then went to QFM pads, which I have found to be a great compromise. Now that I'm starting to use the brakes harder than I was previously, I'm thinking about switching back to the EBC Greens, as I'll probably keep the heat in them longer with my now-more-agressive braking style.

Your Mileage May Vary.

[Spac]

My experience:

Pagid Blues. Good - never got 'em hot enough to fade (rally car, not track car!), decent bite when cold but pedal feels a bit spongy.
Some noise on light braking when pads were cold (but not stone cold - like in heavy traffic taking my sister-in-law to her formal!). No undue wear on discs.

DS2500s. Very similar to Pagids, possibly a slightly better feel when stone cold, but slightly less stopping power. No noise, seem very gentle on the discs. Also about half to two-thirds the price of the Pagids!

Bendix Metal Kings. Old formula were great for the price. Seemed to last brilliantly, and stop well. Pedal would get awful when really hot, but car would stop. At "normal" temps the pedal was really good. Reasonalby hard on discs, but not shockingly so.
I tried a newer set a while back, and they were pretty ordinary... I *believe* that Bendix changed the formula to create extra differetiation between them and Ultimates. *roll*
Have a even newer set in my girlie's car, and they seem to be about as good as the old set, but she doesn't drive this car hard enough to prove anything.

Bendix Ultimates. An old set, so things may have changed, but I was disapppointed with them - significantly dearer than the Metal Kings, but didn't have any obvious advantages other than working better when stone cold and they made less dust (which I still don't care about). Wear of pads was good, wear on disc was pretty shocking.

EBC Greens - Old ones again. Shit. Ah, well, no, maybe not *that* bad, but they seemed like really tempremental versions of the Ultimates - clearly better than Bendix Standards, but that's about where the compliments end...

What I've seen/heard/observed:

Ferodo DS3000s. Better stopping than 2500s, but much harder on discs, and need some heat in them to work. Prone to squeaking.

Endless (sorry, can't recall which ones - about $800 for the set for a S4 RX-7). Stopping power is somewhere between the DS2500s and 3000s, but as easy to get along with as the 2500s.

EBC Yellows. Don't fade, stop well, even in a hard driven RX-3 with standard brakes!!!! I would imagine that disc wear would be significant, but you get that...



Basically, for the money, I'm sticking with DS2500s. If I had a serious track car, I'd look into DS300s, Endless or maybe one of the upper-spec EBCs.

[THRSTY]

the ds2500 ferodos are the same as the FF's that repco sell arent they?

[dattoman1000]

No

FF (Ferodo Formula) is the old DS2000 compound revamped as TS2000
T meaning Thialand. Where they are produced.
They are the same as the DS2000 however they don't have the thermal backing layer between the friction material and the pad backing plate.
The material is still the same stuff.....its made in Italy and transported to Thailand to be bonded to the backing "biscuit"

DS2500 is a totally different animal and is made entirely in Italy.

[THRSTY]

ahh ok thanks for that dattoman.

so how good/bad are the FF/TS2000's compared to the DS2500, Ultimates, metal kings, etc?

[dattoman1000]

Depends on the application
Vehicle
Driving
Tyres
Driver ability....etc etc etc

[RA45GTCelica]

well i have been using the porterfields frt and back ,they have come out with a new compound that i have tried ,its not as good as there old 1 ,also i use to notice even then you would get a good set and bad set depends on the kevlar i suppose .I have changed to FRP 3018 which are DS 3000 on the frt and ds2500 on the back these seem to be in a league of there own ,in other words fantastic ,will be staying with these from know on :) :) :)