View Full Version : Hillclimbs for N00bs
The Alfa Club has received an invite to compete in the Bathurst Hillclimb in January held by the Fiat Car Club. I'm tempted as I would love to say I've 'driven' Bathurst at speed (and legally! ;))
BUT, I know hillclimbs can be pretty tough on the car/engine due to the nature of them (uphill, hard acceleration etc). What's people's thoughts on this? I can't imagine it's much more strenuous than Supersprinting other than the car doesn't have time to warm it's tyres/brakes (that kinda scares me a bit). Given I'll be on AO032Rs, I think the tyres will be grippy enough compared to the road tyres (Michelin Primacy).
The hillclimb runs from somwhere on Conrod, up Forrests and to Skyline or McPhillamy I think.....
Tyres ought not be a problem - getting the pressures right might take some planning, as instead of doing a couple of laps to get the temps thus pressures up they need optimum grip much earlier (in about the first 30m on my track!). so perhaps instead of setting at say 28psi cold to be 34 hot (just an example) go for 32 or 34 cold - the grip won't be optimum but the tyres pressure and handling will be better.
A decent burnout will heat the rears nicely.
Brakes might be a worry if you are a circuit nut. You don't get a chance to heat up the discs and pads so you need something that requires less heat to work.
Engine operating temps ought not be a problem as you can usually idle it a free rev, though do be mindful that the gearbox and diff temps are low. A decent burnout would have help this too.
If you area worry wart you will probably have blood pressure problems by now. However if you were of a really nervous disposition you probably wouldn't have hit a track in the first place! :lol:
hills can also be testing on fuel and oil supply as a steep hill and turns will cause surge in both systems.
As for how to drive.... be really carefull about losing momentum. And watch out for walls.
Brenton_s15
15-11-04, 12:12 PM
Hill Climbs are interesting Nafe. In my opinion Burnouts don't do squat at a Hill Climb.
If you need to get things up to temperature, the best way is to go for a short drive beforehand and hope you don't sit in the staging area for to long.
If you think about it, a burnout is the worst way to warm a car up. All your temps are low and then you are bouncing off of the rev-limiter while getting a mild amount of heat in the rear tyres only. You will leave the line with warm rear tyres, cold fronts, cold brakes, and a engine/drivetrain which has just been subjected to thermal shock. Not what I would call a wise move.
Cheers, Brenton
Hillclimbs are a bit like drag racing in that respect – you go hard when everything is cold.
Our local track has unsealed pits, so the lanes are covered in lose blue metal, dirt , rocks, etc. A burnout will clear off the rears, heat the rubber a little, help clean up the fronts and make sure there is plenty of brake pedal. (I use the brake when warming the rears… plus its fun!) I do feel they help my launches on toyo RA1’s. The pits here are small and the staging lane is along the top of them, so you can’t just duck off and drive around for a couple of hundred metres. So it’s a "horses for courses" issue I suppose. At our last state level event I did notice that the former Australian champion didn’t do burnouts but his tyres were so soft the heat would have killed them anyway ~ plus he only carried enough fuel for one lap, to the point where it ran out on the return road.
I suppose you just need to be wary ~ the shocks will be cold too, so don’t expect the handling to be what it is when everything (including the driver) is up to temperature. A burnout is just like a hard launch where you haven’t hooked up – if you are going to get too worried about them then you are probably not going to be trying to leave the line hard on the green. Oh well… time is lost.
One of the biggest challenges is that you don’t usually have the luxury of practice on another club’s circuit. Some clubs seem happy to let people do a recce pass at a touring speed when the marshals check the track – if you can, do one and try and watch where the marshal’s vehicle goes in case they are a frustrated racing driver…. It might show you a line or two.
The timing is usually easy to deal with – you don’t launch on the green, but rather after it has turned green: so when you get the green (and after double-checking you aren’t in reverse) you have time to get your launch and revs right.
If you've been Supersprinting, then a Hillclimb will be easy.
If you can resist the temptation to do a big drag-race style launch, then you'll be unlucky or stupid to damage your car.
Burnouts are pretty pointless, as has been said... But on the other hand, it is a chance to smoke 'em up legally... :) And blow the s$%t out of your diff, like I did a while back... :(
Slightly different driving approach - much more about going out as hard as you can, with less mental warm-up/practice time. Definitely a much more intense approach needed - though the chances of having a crash are lower 'cause you're on the track totally alone and speeds are lower.
Scrutineering is usually less of a drama, compared to S-sprints... less ego trips from Super-car wannabe strap-ons. ;)
Assuming that you will get several runs, take it easy on the first couple and be particularly sensitive as to how the car feels. Colder front tyres lacking grip seems to be a common problem.
AndyMac
16-11-04, 12:23 PM
You'd be crazy not to pick up on that chance. As you said, Bathurst at speed and legally...
VUSSFIFTY
16-11-04, 12:55 PM
Did that hillclimb in '96. Don't worry, an alfetta will never go fast enough up that hill to get you into trouble. Hillclimb goes from infront of the Bathurst Light car club house (about 100m down from forest elbow) to Skyline. Just give it 7000rpm on the line and dump the clutch, NO WORRIES. Just have to watch going up the dipper backwards, If you hit the geographically correct Apex you WILL hit the wall on the exit, a neat trick that the locals only let you know about if you're nice. Will probably take the ute to this one.
last year it was run quite porrly and contestants on got a couple of runs each
All the cars at the Aust hillclimb champs did burnouts to warm up the rears...but the cars are set up to do the work. Having said that the winner did repoprt understeer in the first corner...just the traction is worth the loss of the understeer. Gary West was doing 165kph before the keyhole at morwell park....and 150-155kph before skyline.
The top guys ran Avon hillclimb tyre or uncut wets. Older cars ran mcreadys!
Nero ~ got any details, specs or pics of Gary West's vehicle?
I was at a hillclimb week before last and it was being mentioned in hushed tones that Peter Gumley had been beaten.
Nafe - pay attention to shift points.... I lunched my engine on the track the other day probably due to over-revving under load.... I was *almost* up the hill too (I really should have shifted :cry: ). Shift light is a great idea as you really don't want eyes off the road, and I imagine a course with blind corners will require a lot of attention.
Yes I have a fairly large amount of information...am doing an article on it for the first issue of the magazine! Gary is a really nice bloke and had a great family team behind him.
What do you want to know?
What do you want to know?
Basic details? Engine, chassis?
Ex 1988 Lola F3000 factory car, imported by alan hamilton. Had cosworth V8 replced with 4.9lt all alloy V6 buick running on alachol I believe. Australian Hillclimb camp car in '89. Carbon tub ala F3000, custom aero package. Did morwell park in under 30sec and beat Gumley on the last run by .06 sec. Gumley ran well, just beaten on the day.
Ta for that Nero, Saru had to ask the question for me as the %&*#'s that run our 'net access from work seem to have blocked PF threads.
Gumley is the lap record holder on our local track by like 3 full seconds + and the next fastest is a fHolden chassis (ex f3000?) with a 13bT as a stressed chassis member, then a slicked lotus 7 replica with 13bT (both driven by the same guy).
this is part of the attraction of hill climbs : the variety of equipment that shows up. Hell, we even have a couple of Aussie legens there on a good day!
I'll really look forward to your mag! :D
Nafe: DO IT! This is the sort of thing that is better to regret having done than not.
you're welcome. Gary's car was by far the best prepared and the tight track probably did not suit it, though they had the aero package for it.
There were no rote's in open wheelers. Not considered highly there on the day. There were some big bore VW engines and one supercharged one that used 6-5lt of methanol per run on a 900m track!
I agree re variety and also friendliness, some people from geelong had stopped a bloke from QLD from packing up and going home, helped him with his car, sold him some tyres and only beat his time (they were in same class) on the last run. Can you imagine that in a different type of motorsport?
I have an article on the way on a lysholm SC 20v 4AGE running 11psi on an unopened engine...gets just under 300bhp!...lots of good stuff there.
I called one of the drivers and queried the rotes...mentioned torque levels and capacity rules. They seem ideal given the size and that fuel use is far less of an issue. Discussion wandered to supercharging a rote..taking turbo's off and using lysholm blower, that way you would have 12-15psi at 1000rpm...interesting idea
The idea of a 2 to 3litre dak dak derived engine consuming between two and three times its capacity worth of methanol in a lot under 40 seconds is strangely arousing.
Locally we use the CAMS practice of doubling the capacity of a rotary to determine the class, then there is another multiplier for forced induction. (don't recall exact numbers... about 1.7?) . Supercharging would be the obvious choice for an on-off-on power delivery situation especially where the tyres used on a light chassis are almost impervious to breaking traction when moving.
In case anyone cares.... The most competitive/highly populated class we have here in Canberra is a derivative of CAMS 3j / improved production. Its a class for "street" ;) tyred, production derived cars. It can include people on the basis of vehicle modifications and / or the tyres used. The competition has proven to be very friendly to date, but that is likely because people have their place in the class (and I suspect that if the front runner is toppled he will be unhappy). The remainder of people have proven to be fun to race with. I think the fact that many people actually race for fun might be part of it too. This attitude might also be because of the variety of equipment and development they bring to the sport. Try and get a look under the bonnet of front running IPRA car and be prepared for an insult - but these open wheeler guys while being cagey on certain specs wear their hearts on their sleeves and let results speak.
Yes the fuel consumption with methanol is amazing, startup and wait, idle, burnout, 35sec run and idle back and tank is nearly empty.
Yes there is the 1.7X for forced induction. It was explained to me in a waay that made sense. The issue of time-management rules some decisions. So if you tune for peak power and narrow powerband then you need to gear for it. However every gearchange has a time penalty, so it may mean that the extra .5 sec to make an extra gearchange means that the 'lower' power car may be slightly ahead. Also the issue of how many changes for the run, how a car responds if you drop out of optimum rpm band/miss a gear etc etc....interesting considerations that are perhaps specific to hillclimbs.
Certainly true that the open wheel guys were the friendliest bunch at the champs.
A few years ago, we did some comparative timing of the V8Supercars down the hillclimb track at Bathurst- Can't remeber exactly, but the fastest 6 hillclimb cars were faster up the (steep, standing start) mountain, than the fastest V8s were (down the mountain, with a 150 km/hr headstart! (by a couple of seconds iirc)
The car I engineered had 505 hp, and weighed about 520 wet with driver. And Gumley still beat us!!
Muz
yes Gumley got where he is by talent not money. You don't get to be multiple champ with small effort. He was very neat when driving, as you would expect.
Umm, yes he is a neat and aggressive driver, and has turned a real ordinary car into a winner, but don't believe that this is a cheap sport at the pointy end.
For example, everyone takes 3 sets of tyres to an Aus Champs- at around $1200 to $1400 a set- that is for maybe 4 minutes of competitive runs.
Muz
There is no such thing as cheap motorsport....just less expensive! :D
especially at the pointy end!
However there were few (2 I can immediately think of) class winners who did not use more than one set of tyres and also used unopened import engines
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