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blackbart
04-07-05, 07:20 PM
Hey all, just need some legal advice about a problem that happened at work today.

A 1st year apprentice made a mistake and the boss wants to give them a written warning BUT as far as I was always told 1st years are supposed to be under supervision when working on cars at all times.

Can anyone help me that actually knows the law?

I checked the Apprenticeship and Traineeship Act 2001 but couldnt find anything.

Thanks.

Cplus
04-07-05, 07:29 PM
sounds like the boss is an ass.

Blaming an apprentice for lack of experience is a bit rough...

Weightz
04-07-05, 07:38 PM
Are u in a union? If u are call them.
He should be under supervision.
And as far as I know it has to be a verbal first.
Written warning second.

Weightz
04-07-05, 07:41 PM
sounds like the boss is an ass.

Blaming an apprentice for lack of experience is a bit rough...
Very rough

Covert
04-07-05, 07:44 PM
It's covered in the Motor Vehicle Repairs Act 1980. Sec 22.

(1) A repairer or commercial vehicle owner (other than an exempted person) must not permit a person employed by him or her to do any repair work unless the person so employed:

(a) holds a tradespersonís certificate in respect of a class of repair work that includes that repair work, or

(b) is an apprentice and does that repair work in the course of his or her apprenticeship and under the supervision of a person who holds such a certificate.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

BOCKY21
04-07-05, 08:48 PM
I'm an apprentice but as a sparky.
Our rules are.

1st year - Direct supervision at all times!
I can't see how being a mechanic would be any different.

Tripper
04-07-05, 09:00 PM
i cant be bothered googling up a link, but a apprentice can not work without supervision, and they also can not join a union.


Your boss has every right to give a warning if he was supervised,
At work i found a person working in a area which required them to have a saftey lock on, they didnt have it on. I could of sacked the person on the spot without a payout, but i spoke to the person and showed them the fact i could sack them over it we had a chat and i got them to sign a paper saying we talked about locking out, this person then went to the union think my treatment was unfair, the course of action caused it to go to my boss, we all sat down and i showed the union rep what she signed, i asked him if i could of sacked them then and there he said yes, so what turned out to be a friendly chat about what they done wrong ended up in them getting a final warning since it was so serious.

sorry it was a bit long winded but a simple chat from the boss saying blah blah blah, just a verbal warning with written documentation we talked about this and if it happens again we will take it more serious may be the correct approach

KanaL
04-07-05, 09:12 PM
I'm a first year motor mechanic apprentice, and I'll tell you right now, that I have only been directly supervised twice, in over 6 months. If i have a problem, I'll ask someone for help. Having said that, I know of many other JAFFY's that are under constant supervision. Covert's post is the first bit of evidence to prove there is some sort of guideline out there.

The Pupat
04-07-05, 10:24 PM
Sounds like your boss is a D1CK blackbart. A first year shouldn't be put in a position that would warrant the handing out of a written warning. I know the first year fitter and turner out our place only does menial jobs... basic welding of no important part and other minor parts, ohh and the usual cleaning floors and running around for supervisor.

Tripper
04-07-05, 10:40 PM
A first year shouldn't be put in a position that would warrant the handing out of a written warning. I know the first year fitter and turner out our place only does menial jobs... basic welding of no important part and other minor parts, ohh and the usual cleaning floors and running around for supervisor.

Pupat i have to agree and disagree, how many times do you have to show them/ tell them to do X before they get a warning, it may be as simple as putting the sump plug in before putting oil in, or esting for dead for a sparky, i am not a mechanic or a sparky but i do both, i dont even trust my dad who is a sparky by trade to test for dead.

I doubt blackbart would of started a thread over something as minor as that ie a basic to the job, it sounds a lot more detailed then that.

The Pupat
05-07-05, 11:18 AM
Well yes but do you really think that not putting a sump plug in is enough to get a written warning, most people would feel enough of a dill to not want to do it again and it's not like you've lost something valuable or was a major fark up. Obviously we don't know a full extent of the story would be interested to see. A first year apprentice should be treated with a zero assumed knowledge basis IE they know absolutely nothing and as such should be treated like that a supervised like a hawk.

"as far as I was always told 1st years are supposed to be under supervision when working on cars at all times."

From this statement I would think it's safe to say he wasn't being adequately supervised and given they wanted to hand out a written warning he was asked to do a job that he wasn't adequately trained to do.

MartyXF
05-07-05, 11:46 AM
The boss is never wrong.

Never incompetent, and its never a training or supervision issue, its the person who was asked to do the jobs fault.

browny
05-07-05, 12:01 PM
blackbart, can we know more about what actually happened?

I mean it seems rough if the guy was working at a technical task without receiving proper instruction, however if it was skylarking/safety or related to shitty attitude then it might well warrant formal kick in the bum.

Camma
05-07-05, 12:26 PM
Fark me. I was hardly ever under supervision when I was doing my apprenticeship. On many occasions I was told what needs doing, if required how to do it then off on my own. That was during my first year.

Needless to say my boss was a lazy prick and I was glad to get out of the trade. The place shut up shop soon after and I don't know what happened to him.

The Pupat
05-07-05, 12:41 PM
Fark me. I was hardly ever under supervision when I was doing my apprenticeship. On many occasions I was told what needs doing, if required how to do it then off on my own. That was during my first year.

Needless to say my boss was a lazy prick and I was glad to get out of the trade. The place shut up shop soon after and I don't know what happened to him.

Exact, more a case of bad management then best practice.

BOCKY21
05-07-05, 05:45 PM
i cant be bothered googling up a link, but a apprentice can not work without supervision, and they also can not join a union.

Hey Tripper.

I'm an apprentice and part of the ETU (Electrical Trades Union)
I have a whole lot of mates who are union members and apprentices.

blackbart
05-07-05, 08:42 PM
Details:

2nd year doing the service

1st year doing front brake pads and machine. Left bottom calliper bolt loose, 2 days later it comes out with customer driving. Very dangerous. Apprentice has done brakes before but mistakes happen. He should get a verbal but I think a written warning and him copping 100% of the blame is extremely wrong, and I am in the sh%t myself for complaining about what happened to him. At no time was there a tradesman supervising and the foreman only road tested the car around the block.

My main problem is that this sort of thing has happened before, all apprentices incl 1st years work doing ALL repairs completely unsupervised and the foreman wont accept any responsibility when they make mistakes.

eg.
1st year did a service, left old o-ring on block and car burns to the ground (no warning, no action taken)

1st year leaves sump plug loose and it comes out with customer driving but no damage (written warning)

1st year with no licence drives car into a tool box (no warning, no action taken)

I can go on and on with these...

carazy
05-07-05, 09:38 PM
I wouldnt be saying anything to your boss (so you don't get in any more shit)
But I'd be telling the first year to go and talk to the MTA (or relavant motoring body) they should stick it to the boss for him.
Good luck, it's never fun getting stuck in the middle when someone else is copping bullshit.

muttaburra
05-07-05, 09:43 PM
sounds like your boss is a nob, and a big one at that. please dont tell us its a reputable car dealer. (well you cant tell us exactly who it is)

ring the apprentiship board, they can tell you yes or no as to your question. they use to have a fair bit of power but im not sure about that now. they could fine employeers for doing the wrong things when it comes to appretices.

Tripper
05-07-05, 09:45 PM
blackbart i spoke to a few tradesmen today, if they do leave them doing a job on there own they always check there work before signing the work off as being done

The Pupat
05-07-05, 11:46 PM
exactly what I would think Tripper, they are an apprentice for a reason. Because they are a junior in training, they aren't a qualified trademan.

Blackbart: are the apprentices employed through a training company such as migas? If so find out which company and give them a ring and speak to the apprentices supervisor and tell him what is going on and the full story. Make him understand that you telling him off the record so to speak and you don't want to be bought up about it as there might be repercusions. If it starts getting any worse on you behalf, maybe remind them that DETS (department of training) wouldn't be too impressed if they heard what has been occuring.

Fair enough if the apprentices does the work but it should always be checked properly before being signed off by someone qualified.

blackbart
06-07-05, 06:50 PM
The Pupat: Yes he is using an apprentice agency, I know because its the same one I used when I was an apprentice. They are also a bunch of useless knobs that I had alot of trouble with.

It is a big dealership but i'd better not say lol, even though I'm leaving in a few months.:D

I saw the guy today and he's happy to just quit, already has a better job lined up.

Nero
06-07-05, 09:16 PM
I know of two main dealerships in Melb who get 1/2 app'ces to do major services and they charge $125 p/h....oh what a feeling!

Jim
06-07-05, 09:27 PM
blackbart i spoke to a few tradesmen today, if they do leave them doing a job on there own they always check there work before signing the work off as being done


When I was an apprentice mechanic, and later when I was responsable for apprentices, this is exactly how it was done.

1st year apprentice does front brake pads. tradesman responsable checks caliper bolts, pad orientation and brake fluid level before the wheels go back on.

In fact first years only ever got shit jobs like pumping the brake pedal, sweeping up, lunches, cleaning parts, sand plasting, all the crappy time consuming no brainer stuff. If they were still there the 2nd year then they got to do real work like brake pad changes and services.

any tradesman that lets a 1st year do full services unsupervised either has an exceptional apprentice, or is a fucking moron.

Nero
06-07-05, 10:02 PM
I can only agree with the sentiment, however they are a large buisness which makes a lot of money. My brother in law poached their senior Lexsus mech for less money and more responsibility....he liked not being told what to do by an accountant. BTW like the new mags?

KanaL
07-07-05, 02:03 AM
I've been doing full major services, disk machining etc for the past 3 months, and I've only been a 1st year for 7. sure, the car gets road tested, but none of my caliper bolts and shit gets checked. i probably will fuck up one day, and i will get my arse reamed by the service manager. do you think i should be asking the road testers, or at the least, a higher level apprentice to go over my work?

Jim
07-07-05, 08:28 AM
your work should always be checked, preferably by a tradesman or 3rd or 4th year.
It's worth it, because you learn more when your mistakes are spotted before they become fuckups. Mistakes cost a little bit of pride, fuckups cost jobs or lives.

the reality though is in a busy workshop the pressure is on to get all the shitboxes out the door before beer o'clock, so the chances of you managing to convince someone to check your work is slim.

The Pupat
07-07-05, 11:45 AM
I've been doing full major services, disk machining etc for the past 3 months, and I've only been a 1st year for 7. sure, the car gets road tested, but none of my caliper bolts and shit gets checked. i probably will fuck up one day, and i will get my arse reamed by the service manager. do you think i should be asking the road testers, or at the least, a higher level apprentice to go over my work?


Both you and more importantly your boss are taking a huge risk in doing this. If that happened where I was working I'd have a heartattack. Think of it like if you were driving a car without a licence and hit somebody but you weren't at fault. Without a licence you will go to be prosecuted no 2 ways about it. If you are licence you will have a good chance of getting off it.

It same sort of thing that trade certificate says you are cappable to doing those jobs that are entailed as being a motor-mechanic. Being an apprentice is like being a learner driver just because you can drive the car doesn't mean you should be left without supervision. Just food for thought really, don't know how you could brace the subject with your boss to push to get it in place that apprentices work is checked off by a tradesman but if I were you I would pushing to get your own work checked by a tradesman. The more times you do it the more times you'll know what problems to look for and the better tradesman you will be.

Camma
07-07-05, 12:27 PM
I agree Secoh my boss was a complete tool to leave me unattended and while I was fairly confident I knew most of what I was doing, it takes years of experience become a good mechanic able to notice things that may seem insignificant but can be deadly.

It was interesting at TAFE listening to what some apprentices were being taught, I vaguely remember a scary one about standard practise at a major dealership in Canberra on how spark plugs were put into alloy heads. Get the cars in and out as quick as possible. :(

THE ASH
07-07-05, 12:47 PM
I vaguely remember a scary one about standard practise at a major dealership in Canberra on how spark plugs were put into alloy heads. Get the cars in and out as quick as possible. :(

Surely not a rattlegun!

Camma
07-07-05, 01:42 PM
;)

Jim
07-07-05, 06:19 PM
yeah, heard that one before... well, should I say fixed the results before, hence my thread repair skills.

CXTdreamer
08-07-05, 04:02 AM
Details:

2nd year doing the service

1st year doing front brake pads and machine. Left bottom calliper bolt loose, 2 days later it comes out with customer driving. Very dangerous. Apprentice has done brakes before but mistakes happen. He should get a verbal but I think a written warning and him copping 100% of the blame is extremely wrong, and I am in the sh%t myself for complaining about what happened to him. At no time was there a tradesman supervising and the foreman only road tested the car around the block.

My main problem is that this sort of thing has happened before, all apprentices incl 1st years work doing ALL repairs completely unsupervised and the foreman wont accept any responsibility when they make mistakes.

eg.
1st year did a service, left old o-ring on block and car burns to the ground (no warning, no action taken)

1st year leaves sump plug loose and it comes out with customer driving but no damage (written warning)

1st year with no licence drives car into a tool box (no warning, no action taken)

I can go on and on with these...


How frigging dumb are the apprentices at your work? :wtf:

They need a warning for being braindead morons, its not exactly difficult to do a bolt up properly, I'd never have thought you'd need to check that something like that has been done properly because I wouldnt think anyone would be inept enough to f$ck up something so simple.

Are apprentices just stupid, are they high on drugs at work, or do they just not give a sh1t about doing their job properly?

HoonBoy
08-07-05, 09:29 AM
How frigging dumb are the apprentices at your work? :wtf:

They need a warning for being braindead morons, its not exactly difficult to do a bolt up properly, I'd never have thought you'd need to check that something like that has been done properly because I wouldnt think anyone would be inept enough to f$ck up something so simple.

Are apprentices just stupid, are they high on drugs at work, or do they just not give a sh1t about doing their job properly?

Maybe they are just young people who are learning and sometimes make mistakes? Hence the need for a supervisor...

The Pupat
08-07-05, 11:06 AM
How frigging dumb are the apprentices at your work? :wtf:

They need a warning for being braindead morons, its not exactly difficult to do a bolt up properly, I'd never have thought you'd need to check that something like that has been done properly because I wouldnt think anyone would be inept enough to f$ck up something so simple.

Are apprentices just stupid, are they high on drugs at work, or do they just not give a sh1t about doing their job properly?

Can you please tell us where you work so we can come and call you dumb and a braindead moron when you forget to do something or over look something when you are learning something new during your work day. Pull your head out of your arse, everyone makes mistakes when they are learning.

blackbart
09-07-05, 02:48 PM
Pull your head out of your arse, everyone makes mistakes when they are learning.

My thoughts exactly CXTdreamer