Charade Detomaso rally car

[AlexinPerth]

This is our new rally car.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5914/dsc04311iep8.jpg

It's a locally delivered 3dr G200 Charade with a full detomaso conversion.
Suspension is adjustable height all around, front shocks are rebound adjustable with remote canisters (original daihatsu/KYBs).

Custom built rollcage, OBX fixed-back seats, sump guard, terratrip etc.

Engine specs:
1.6L HD-EG (similar to Applause 1.6L 4cyl)
Ivan Tighe cam
Isky valvesprings
AEM Stinger ECU
Pod filter
Detomaso extractors and free flowing exhaust

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/694/dsc03896ra8.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/6012/dsc03897oi6.jpg

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9913/dsc02373bg0.jpg

on Sunday it survived it's first outing with the only casualty being the muffler fell off.

Short term plans are to get a front LSD installed, along with a gearbox with a higher final drive ratio. Also need to get the tune refined on a dyno.

Plans for next year are to participate in a few special stage rallies, and have a blast!

Alex.

[260DET]

Took the sound system out eh, no rock n' roll.

[crunk81]

Did that car come with the 1.6 or did you shoehorn it in there?
If it's not original how hard was it to fit?
I have a 1.3 one of these, goes ok, but on the first hard offroad run I pulled a cv out of the hub and snapped the circlip holding it in. It's still sat there.. one side up in the air partly dismantled. lol
If I could get a circlip I might put it in and have another go. But no-one wants to sell me one, and I'm too busy to hunt around for one. meh.
Anyway looks like a lot of fun. I like the cage too! SAFETY FIRST! ;-P

[AlexinPerth]

The previous owner built the car, it was all taken from an imported detomaso front cut.
Everything from the front cut just bolted in, since the detomaso was the same body shell.

Just take the whole driveshaft to a specialist. will be <$100 to have it all put back together.

Will post pics of the LSD soon. Got a new gearbox back together with a 4.6 final drive and viscous LSD.

Alex.

[Motorsportlady]

I remember when the first one campaigned here in Aus. It was a MRT Performance Car driven by Brett Middleton. Boy did it Rev!

[CXTdreamer]

My Detomaso didn't rev hard, neither did my HD converted G102.

The 4.6 is nice though, diesel ratio?

[AlexinPerth]

Yeah, it's out of a diesel box.

I've limited mine to 6800 RPM. Still feels like it's pulling well at that RPM, it'll be clear once I have a dyno printout what the torque curve looks like.

Apparrently the works cars that Bates & MacKenzie ran used to snap the front of the crankshafts off at nearly 8000 RPM. They were running forged internals though.

edit: not very true. See below..

Alex.

[AlexinPerth]

Had a driver development day this weekend, and got a bit too confident with it..


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5593/buggercz4.jpg

Went side-on into the edge of a rut around a hairpin. We'd been going around the tracks all afternoon, and the ruts just got bigger and bigger.

I'm a bit depressed about it all, but it only needs a new roof, new glass and some light panelbeating. Should be all sorted out within the next few weeks.

I must say, it's pretty lively to drive on the dirt. Just a bit of turn-in, and some left foot braking, and suddenly you're going sideways. Then it's all throttle out of the corner.

Definitely needs a front LSD - it's wheelspin all the way out of the corners. You can hold the revs at 6500, and just feel the wheels gradually build up grip.

I think I need to be a bit more careful about the corner entry speed though. :(

Also thinking that measuring the centre of gravity would be useful. Not sure what to do with that info though.. Is there some guidelines about where the COG should be normally? (besides "as low as possible")

Alex.

[MickyD]

oops...

I used to have one of the old Daihatsu Challenge cars as my daily driver. the thing was literally falling apart by the time I got rid of it (crease marks in the roof, whole front end cracking...)
don't think I've got any pics of it online unfortunately, but my olds did Rally Oz in it in '92.

[gslrallysport]

Did that car come with the 1.6 or did you shoehorn it in there?
If it's not original how hard was it to fit?
Its exactly the same motor. Bolts straight in, only need the 1.6 injectors wired to the original loom. Keep the 1.3 ECU as it has a higher rev limiter...

[audineil]

Alexinperth,
I built the engines for Rick Bates' DeTomaso, including the 1998 Australian Formula 2 rally championship engine producing 113kW at the wheels.

1) Others may have sheared the nose off the crank, but with the careful preparation I did, we never had a problem.

2) The Group A rules prohibited the use of non-original crank and rods, ours were carefully prepared originals.

3) Our rev limit was strictly 8300 RPM. Rick never exceeded it once. I know, I did his data aquisition.

This car was my favorite rally car and, I believe, Ricks as well.

Neil

[AlexinPerth]

Neil,

Thanks for that info!
It's good to get first hand info about these things, instead of "rumours" from people. I'm guilty of passing them on I guess.

Must have been pretty interesting and exciting being involved at that level of ARC.

I might hit you up for some advice when it comes engine rebuild time, if you don't mind.

Do you know what is a safe RPM limit to use on a standard bottom end (no shot peening, standard pistons, bearings and oil system)?

Did you guys do the head porting, or know who did?

It sure is a fun car to drive :)

Alex.

[audineil]

I don't know the safe RPM for a stock bottom end. I suspect that the 7200RPM limit of the 1.3 ECU is OK.

I did the head porting. I don't like anyone else doing work on engines that carry my name. Rick did get a head from NZ due to time constraints, but it was awful, so I did it myself.

It was exciting doing rallying then. To go further in Australian Rallying I would have had to work on Turbo engines. Turbo rally cars are real boring and so slooooow so I took up work on racing cars. I am enjoying that.

Neil

[Glen]

ITurbo rally cars are real boring and so slooooow so I took up work on racing cars.

Bollocks .... not from where I sit at least!

[Raynman]

I'll agree with Glen on this - no way the turbo rally cars are slow. They just aren't that loud. But they most definately can be exciting to watch- it just depends who is driving them.

An aggressively driven AWD turbo is still impressive and sideways. It isn't the car, it's just some of the drivers



BTW - Alex - is that Troy M's old charade?

[AlexinPerth]

Yeah, it is. Have you seen it around previously?

Alex.

[audineil]

My view on the speed of the turbo rally cars is based on taking one of Cody Crokers' cars for a drive and also a ride in one of Neal Bates' cars.

I thought they were going to be pretty fast but other than that they had heaps of torque, it really didn't accelerate very fast. What I mean is that they felt really grunty but seriously disappointed with their speed over a given distance of road.

Even if they do have the claimed 270BHP claimed that really is not very much in a 1350kg car is it?. Heaps of standard cars have better power to weight than that.

Neil

[Motorsportlady]

Neil,

Having sat in the silly seat and also the 'nut behind the wheel' of a turbo rally car once or twice, I don't consider 198km/hour on the dirt as slow. I do agree they don't always punch you back into the seat under accelleration, but this would be a silly power curve to set as they do need to be able to transfer the power through to a loose surface and turn the energy into forward motion. I do miss the sound of the BDA's and like era cars through the forests when spectating...the electric rat sounds of the average turbo cars do leave a little excitement out of the overall experience.

I do have to say, I much prefer the black stuff to drive on! Bitumen is far more consistant to work with, is more easily identified when set up changes are needed by feel and handling. It is also far easier to hook the power through to forward motion, and easier to recover from mistakes when you are driving.

[Raynman]

Yeah, it is. Have you seen it around previously?

Alex.

Troy is involved in our rally team, so I saw it when I was over at Busselton for the Forest Rally.

you'll have heaps of fun with it!

[Glen]

I do have to say, I much prefer the black stuff to drive on! Bitumen is far more consistant to work with, is more easily identified when set up changes are needed by feel and handling. It is also far easier to hook the power through to forward motion, and easier to recover from mistakes when you are driving.

Soft. Get out heretic!

[Motorsportlady]

Soft. Get out heretic!

:D I'm speaking totally from my limited skills! (thought I may get a bite from you ;))

[Jason Broadhurst]

want a spare gearbox alex?

[AlexinPerth]

Quick update, it's had a new roof for a little while:
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3402/charadefrontda9.jpg
Got the gearbox out, went to swap it with the spare, and then:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8897/gearboxespu5.jpg

Once of these is not like the other. Sigh.

Alex.

[AlexinPerth]

Took it to a dyno day today, and this is the result.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/7929/charadedyno090308ab5.jpg

The end of the plot is around 7000 RPM, and the power is still increasing.

:)

Thanks to daiclub and Tenagah Motorsports.

Alex.

[Teamgemini]

oops...

I used to have one of the old Daihatsu Challenge cars as my daily driver. the thing was literally falling apart by the time I got rid of it (crease marks in the roof, whole front end cracking...)
don't think I've got any pics of it online unfortunately, but my olds did Rally Oz in it in '92.

Shit old post but the one I drove was identical, in the end it was held together by pop rivets and race tape. Same deal as yours by the sound of it, dad did rally aus that year too.

I do recall it took about 15 minutes to jack up after I hit a roo in it and finally kiled it, the front wheels just stayed on the ground while the rest of the car bent like a bananna...

[Euroboost]

Its exactly the same motor. Bolts straight in, only need the 1.6 injectors wired to the original loom. Keep the 1.3 ECU as it has a higher rev limiter...

Is this just for the G200, or will it work for the G102? I've developed a strange affection for Charades and am currently waiting to hear back about a G102 sedan.

Oh yeah, drilled airbox and 7300rpm in a shitbox G102 gets some strange looks.:yup:

[AlexinPerth]

I've got a suspicion that the G102 will fit a HD-E.

Have a look around on the daihard forums. Good luck with the search function.

edit: yep, it fits. The G102 came with a HC-E, so a HD fits.

Alex.

[hotgemini]

Shit old post but the one I drove was identical, in the end it was held together by pop rivets and race tape. Same deal as yours by the sound of it, dad did rally aus that year too.

I do recall it took about 15 minutes to jack up after I hit a roo in it and finally kiled it, the front wheels just stayed on the ground while the rest of the car bent like a bananna...

I'm starting to suspect these two blokes are brothers who both used to borrow their parents' rally car.

[crunk81]

Well my last charade got killed by my dickhead step brother in law, so....
Picking up a 1.3 g200 tomorrow, will be straight into the shop to get an exhaust, air intake, roll cage, and a whole lot of useless crap ripped out. I can't wait!
What size tyres are you running on there?
Any tips on setting it up for dirt or things to look out for?

[DubaiDai]

Hi Alex,

I've got myself a Detomaso Charade to go racing over here in Dubai in the local Saloon car championship, and I would like to get in touch with you to ask a couple of questions regarding the Detom.

Thanks in Advance,

Steve

[SLO78U]

NICE !!

any more action shots ?? looks like a clean little car !!!

just keep it off the trees.

[AlexinPerth]

Thanks :)
I'll upload some more pics over the next few days.

The car's been running well - we came 11th clubman in Forest rally, 3rd clubby in Blackwood rally and 6th clubby in the experts cup.

Alex.

[AlexinPerth]

Here are some photos of the factory viscous LSD.

The LSD itself is a sleeve that locks onto the driver's side driveshaft, and locks into some teeth on the diff casing.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9646/dsc04381yx8.jpg
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4972/dsc04382nn0.jpg
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8964/dsc04390cl3.jpg

[AlexinPerth]

Some actions shots from recent events:

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3121/mg6557os1.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2456/mg6644lr6.jpg

Photo by Paul Van der Mey:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5963/248188106163317f4fb9oex6.jpg


Alex.

[AlexinPerth]

We managed to win P2 class in state for 08! Yay!

Added a wheel scraper to stop mud building up in one spot on the rear wheels. (we had this once during a rally, caused massive vibrations!)

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2420/wheelscrapercn3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Broke 2nd gear last rally:
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1372/broken2ndgearfo5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Looking at improving the intake:

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/5109/gsxrthrottlesiy3.jpg

Also have a high compression engine being slowly built.

[AlexinPerth]

This is the donor manifold for the custom intake, it's off an Applause:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/460/dsc06790wd9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/dsc06790wd9.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img186/dsc06790wd9.jpg/1/)

Cut down to equal length stubs:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/153/dsc0019vu5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/dsc0019vu5.jpg/1/w1014.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img186/dsc0019vu5.jpg/1/)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3091/dsc0009py9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/dsc0009py9.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img258/dsc0009py9.jpg/1/)


Got some mandrel bends and alloy pipe coming from JNT.

I'm thinking that I'll prototype it with silicon hose first, then when I'm happy with it, I'll get the pipes tig welded together.

[Euroboost]

Any reason why you couldn't leave the silicon hose? That way you could vary the tract length to fine tune the power/torque curve for the event. I know Kas Kastner trialled it in the US on the PI Triumphs, although he was using the hose upstream of the butterfly due to concerns of mounting the injectors.

[AlexinPerth]

It'll probably stay that way for ages anyway, since it's hard for me to get back around to these things, especially when they are in a working state. :)

You're right though, I could have a couple of fixed lengths, check them on the dyno and switch between them - wide torque for twisty stuff, and bigger top end for higher speed events.

[AlexinPerth]

Woohoo, got the factory trumpets. They've got a better curve to them than what I was expecting too.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4834/dsc0497cs0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/dsc0497cs0.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img22/dsc0497cs0.jpg/1/)

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3516/dsc0498lr9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/dsc0498lr9.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img504/dsc0498lr9.jpg/1/)

[AlexinPerth]

OK, since all that was started, I found my rear struts were broken and my cooling system was inadequate.. 3 weeks before the next rally.

Managed to get some 40mm DMS originally built for the front of an excel and fit them to the rear of the charade.

New radiator, oil cooler and some shrouding improved the cooling system. But not 100%, since it seems that there is a head gasket leak. :(

Ran it anyway, and managed to break the gearbox on the second day of the Forest rally. Crownwheel started losing teeth, and we retired 3 stages from the end. :knock:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3863/dsc15251.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc15251.jpg)

[Jason Broadhurst]

Bloody gearbox problems. Unlucky Alex.

[AlexinPerth]

OK, this car has had some attention over the summer..

5.54 straight cut final drive

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4298348849_55070f89a4_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2761/4298352001_3a09cde2b2_b.jpg

Fresh bearings in gearbox
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2538/4298361107_b2bfd65947_b.jpg

New engine build, 11:1 compression, new oil pump, better flowing head:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4298427831_3b951922ef_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2804/4311859465_498539d1b0_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2677/4332469072_86bac49690_b.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2728/4332473142_5e862cbb90_b.jpg

I also replaced the seals and fluid in the front suspension.

Still running the factory intake manifold. Quads are ready to go on, but will have to wait until around June, in the winter break from rallying.

[Jason Broadhurst]

Is this on Daihard?

[AlexinPerth]

Nah. I've been on there a bit, there was some really good info on there, but the posts database keeps getting smaller for some reason, and there are some big egos there too.

Having said that, there are lots of really knowledgable people too.