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View Full Version : BMW M1 engine (M88) - obtainable?



Eeyore
31-01-10, 09:00 AM
What would be the chances of obtaining a complete BMW M88 inline six engine through some kind of European auto dismantler or possibly some other import specialist? What about a race team? Is this just another stupid idea?

morerevsm3
31-01-10, 09:08 AM
Pip Barker has some in boats somewhere in NSW

Eeyore
31-01-10, 09:19 AM
Apparently the 635CSi had the same engine although I think it may have had EFI.

Sketchy
31-01-10, 09:21 AM
They are around. I found a complete e23 M7 a few months ago for under 10 grand in complete running order. These were one of the few models to recieve the M88 along with the M1, e28 M5 and of course the M6.

Probably better off trying to bring one over from Pomgolia though, I imagine there should still be a few kicking around.

Eeyore
31-01-10, 09:24 AM
Sounds promising. The main reason I was interested in the M1 version was the trick mechanical fuel injection unit.

TonyJZX
31-01-10, 09:40 AM
how is this possible? i wouldn't imagine there are a ton of written off M1s

Forg
31-01-10, 09:48 AM
Apparently the 635CSi had the same engine although I think it may have had EFI.
I think the 635CSi engine was "based on" that original M1 engine, but it's not the same thing & certainly didn't have the same power as an M5 or M6. Don't know what you would need to mod to get it up to that power level; nor whether those mods would be acceptable given that you've said you want the mechanical injection & you'd only be after that to meet a particular racing rules requirement?

Eeyore
31-01-10, 09:55 AM
Interesting. I also noticed the 635 and M5 have the engine cantered over too. I suppose there would be quite a few differences. The mech. injection issue isn't out of necessity, just personal preference.

Eeyore
31-01-10, 10:08 AM
Production Breakdown:

1979 - 79 cars (41 road, 38 race)
1980 - 188 cars (178 road, 10 race)
1981 - 188 cars (180 road, 8 race)
Total: 455 cars (399 road, 56 race)

Shite those figures aren't too promising. However with the racing division and other privateer entries you'd think there would have been a tonne of parts available at the time and possibly still today.

Sketchy
31-01-10, 10:15 AM
Sounds promising. The main reason I was interested in the M1 version was the trick mechanical fuel injection unit.

Erm, why? Mechanical injection is a headfuck at the best of times. You can grab it from any older BMW or Benz for a fraction of the cost anyway.

One thing I would love to do if I had deep pockets is to convert my 300sel to a fully injected setup and throw the mechanical injection in the bin.

Eeyore
31-01-10, 11:34 AM
Like I said it's just personal preference, predominantly for asthetic reasons. This might sound ridiculous but servicability and/or reliability isn't an issue I was considering. You're right though EFI would be a better option and it's something I have a little bit of experience with too.

GT-R LM
31-01-10, 01:40 PM
just look for a written off McLaren.

there were a few versions of that engine including the stroke

Euroboost
31-01-10, 02:01 PM
just look for a written off McLaren.

there were a few versions of that engine including the stroke

What?
You forgot the italics.
The M1 ran a 3.5 DOHC straight 6.

MickyD
31-01-10, 02:28 PM
and there were only 106 F1's made anyway, so I'm sure there's plenty of engines around

Forg
31-01-10, 03:20 PM
Like I said it's just personal preference, predominantly for asthetic reasons. This might sound ridiculous but servicability and/or reliability isn't an issue I was considering.
Or performance, to be frank. Even Megasquirt & the like is going to allow more power [i]plus[/] more reliability. Although not as much phreaky period wierd Kugelfischerness (or whatever the mechanical injection was). :)

Methinks thou shouldst get thyself to some Bee-emm forum of some description. They'll know what's required to make the common-as-mud (figuratively-speaking) 635CSi/535i engine into an M1/M5/M6-equivalent, surely.

Sketchy
31-01-10, 03:25 PM
For the record, 635csi etc were all SOHC 3.5 M30 motors, only the M6 had the DOHC M88 donk.

635csi had lots of nice gucci bits (recaros, bigger bilstein shocks, sway bars, and some extra spoliers) but was defintely NOT an M6.

I am also certain (but being a while since I delved into older BMW motors so those that know can correct me if I'm wrong) that the M88 is based on a garden variety M30 big six block much like the original 4 pot M3 engine was based on the garden variety M10 4 cyl, albeit with stuff needed for fasts like oil squiters under the pistons,etc. So in theory you could build an M88 from a stocker 3.5 but seeing as the DOHC head is the most important and expensive bit its kind of a moot point

Rezz
31-01-10, 03:59 PM
I can get my hands on a "cheapish" McLaren F1, who's the best mob in AU to go to to get the righthand drive conversion done?

Forg
31-01-10, 04:08 PM
So in theory you could build an M88 from a stocker 3.5 but seeing as the DOHC head is the most important and expensive bit its kind of a moot point
So the DOHC 6cyl 535i engine, when it finally arrived, is completely different & you couldn't use the head off that?

floody
31-01-10, 04:13 PM
I reckon he means the head will be just as ex[ensive/difficult to locate as a whole motor, then all the ancillary bits to make it work...You'd just get a complete one.

da9jeff
31-01-10, 04:14 PM
i thought the e30 m3 was a 4cyl version of the m88 m1 engine and the m88 was its own beastie ?

jesus
31-01-10, 05:06 PM
dodge viper engines are where its at, big power super cheap

morerevsm3
31-01-10, 05:53 PM
I can get my hands on a "cheapish" McLaren F1, who's the best mob in AU to go to to get the righthand drive conversion done?

HaHa, I see what you did there :rotflol:

Sketchy
31-01-10, 07:35 PM
i thought the e30 m3 was a 4cyl version of the m88 m1 engine and the m88 was its own beastie ?

Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong but everything I've read and seen points to the m30 actually being an m10 with two extra cylinders. I know for a fact that you can bolt a 4cyl DOHC M3 head straight onto a stocker m10 block and have *heard* that the M88 head is the same deal for the m30.

da9jeff
31-01-10, 08:00 PM
fucked if i know, i just work here

Fraud
31-01-10, 09:02 PM
I can get my hands on a "cheapish" McLaren F1, who's the best mob in AU to go to to get the righthand drive conversion done?

:worship::D

Marv
31-01-10, 09:07 PM
There is plenty of info on M88/S38 engines on Wikipedia. FWIW there are more chickens with lips than M88 engine floating around. An S38 is by all accounts a better engine, but for the money there are better again engines to use...

bigmuz
31-01-10, 09:56 PM
If it's not a toojay then you are gay.

Asteroid
31-01-10, 10:51 PM
Put a 7M in it.

GT-R LM
01-02-10, 12:32 AM
What?
You forgot the italics.
The M1 ran a 3.5 DOHC straight 6.


nah i mixed it up with another beema

sirhsv
01-02-10, 10:46 AM
I can get my hands on a "cheapish" McLaren F1, who's the best mob in AU to go to to get the righthand drive conversion done?

:lol::lol:

rob_2JZA61
01-02-10, 11:26 AM
didnt think it was worth starting a new thread so i'll hijack

seems cheap, something seems not right about it tho

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BMW-635-CSI_W0QQitemZ250571507671QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car s?hash=item3a5739c7d7

2JZR31
01-02-10, 11:44 AM
didnt think it was worth starting a new thread so i'll hijack

seems cheap, something seems not right about it tho

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BMW-635-CSI_W0QQitemZ250571507671QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car s?hash=item3a5739c7d7

Thats a cool car. Pitty about the rust.

Marv
01-02-10, 11:57 AM
I want those wheels.

Road_Terrorist
01-02-10, 02:42 PM
So the DOHC 6cyl 535i engine, when it finally arrived, is completely different & you couldn't use the head off that?

It doesn't exist, the 535i in the E12, E28 and E34 was just the M30 SOHC 12v straight six. The E39 535i and E38 735i's were actually 3.5L versions of the V8. The DOHC 24v six you are probably thinking of is the M50 and M52 series but they only went to 2.8L (or 3.0L in the M54) as they were a replacement for the M20.

Road_Terrorist
01-02-10, 03:15 PM
They are around. I found a complete e23 M7 a few months ago for under 10 grand in complete running order. These were one of the few models to recieve the M88 along with the M1, e28 M5 and of course the M6.

Probably better off trying to bring one over from Pomgolia though, I imagine there should still be a few kicking around.

The E23 'M7' you mention is probably a South African 745i, they got the M88 instead of the turbo M30 variants in the Euro 745i because the turbo manifold gets in the way of the right hand drive steering column, for some reason they still badged it a 745i.

rowdytoot
01-02-10, 03:57 PM
Dear Mr Road Terrorist, suggest you look at the S38 engine which powered the E34 M5 , it's an evolution of the M88 and is dohc, straight 6.

Eeyore
01-02-10, 04:03 PM
I did some more digging today. Apparently the Kugelfischer fuel injection units can be worth tens of thousands, including the pump. They are also difficult to locate as often owners don't want to part with them. I shudder to think what a complete engine would be worth.

msmola2002
01-02-10, 04:36 PM
The E23 'M7' you mention is probably a South African 745i, they got the M88 instead of the turbo M30 variants in the Euro 745i because the turbo manifold gets in the way of the right hand drive steering column, for some reason they still badged it a 745i.

there is one just out of newcastle

a guy has 2 M6s he imported to convert to RHD - and somehow managed to get one of these seffa 7 series for cheap - had a motor rebuild, customer couldn't/wouldn't pay bill, mechanic ended up keeping it in lieu of payment or something then sold it. It is not in the best nick but more than likely will be a motor donor for something.

Marv
01-02-10, 04:54 PM
Dear Mr Road Terrorist, suggest you look at the S38 engine which powered the E34 M5 , it's an evolution of the M88 and is dohc, straight 6.

S38 isn't what the other bloke was talking about. As far as I'm aware there is SFA interchangable between an M88, an M30 and an S38. You also can't swap an s38 head onto an m30 and you wouldn't want to.

Forg
01-02-10, 05:15 PM
It doesn't exist, the 535i in the E12, E28 and E34 was just the M30 SOHC 12v straight six. The E39 535i and E38 735i's were actually 3.5L versions of the V8. The DOHC 24v six you are probably thinking of is the M50 and M52 series but they only went to 2.8L (or 3.0L in the M54) as they were a replacement for the M20.
Cool, ta; all these M's are confusing, and I'd thought there'd been a non-M5 DOHC engine in the E34. Now you've said all that, my vague recollection has evaporated to nothing ... :)

rowdytoot
01-02-10, 06:02 PM
S38 isn't what the other bloke was talking about. As far as I'm aware there is SFA interchangable between an M88, an M30 and an S38. You also can't swap an s38 head onto an m30 and you wouldn't want to.

I know, but road terroriest aserted there was no DOHC 3.5 litre straight six, in reponse to Forgs post. He's clearly wrong in that regard.

Marv
01-02-10, 06:47 PM
WELL... He is right. The s38 were 3.4 and 3.8 :)

floody
01-02-10, 06:54 PM
I did some more digging today. Apparently the Kugelfischer fuel injection units can be worth tens of thousands, including the pump. They are also difficult to locate as often owners don't want to part with them. I shudder to think what a complete engine would be worth.

Did some more digging?
At what point did you actually think it would be cheap? Its rare, old, and European. I can't see how that wouldn't ring s straight away.

Forg
01-02-10, 07:26 PM
Did some more digging?
At what point did you actually think it would be cheap? Its rare, old, and European. I can't see how that wouldn't ring €€€€s straight away.
I guess the fact that it's a bit shit compared to anything from the last 25-odd years ... ? :)

rowdytoot
02-02-10, 07:35 AM
WELL... He is right. The s38 were 3.4 and 3.8 :)

err the early S38( E28 M5 and E24 M6) was 3453 cc (which rounds up to 3.5) the next in the E34 M5 was 3535 cc (which rounds down to 3.5)

:D :D

Marv
02-02-10, 07:41 AM
err the early S38( E28 M5 and E24 M6) was 3453 cc (which rounds up to 3.5) the next in the E34 M5 was 3535 cc (which rounds down to 3.5)

:D :D

I could pick a technical fault with your post but that would be getting a bit silly :D :lol:

Fact of the matter is that the S38 only exists for Scandos to turbocharge and make a bajillion horsepower from, or to exite Eurofanboiz. Turbo M52 2.8L DOHC FTW... or LSx FTMFW

TonyJZX
02-02-10, 07:45 AM
how much money do you think it would take to bring that black JPS BMW up to spec.?

$15k? $20k?

Eeyore
02-02-10, 07:51 AM
Did some more digging?
At what point did you actually think it would be cheap? Its rare, old, and European. I can't see how that wouldn't ring s straight away.

At no point mate... in fact the reason I was looking at the M88 was for a comparably logical solution over modifying an existing six-cylinder engine to the same extent. I figured for 'roughly' the same amount you'd have a race bred engine with some relatively high tech bits for the time while still maintaining a bit of nostalgic appeal. At least this thread provided a conversation point.

rowdytoot
02-02-10, 07:51 AM
I could pick a technical fault with your post but that would be getting a bit silly :D :lol:

Fact of the matter is that the S38 only exists for Scandos to turbocharge and make a bajillion horsepower from, or to exite Eurofanboiz. Turbo M52 2.8L DOHC FTW... or LSx FTMFW

:lol:

Marv
02-02-10, 07:59 AM
how much money do you think it would take to bring that black JPS BMW up to spec.?


Too much.

Besides, it requires JZK25 + too-jay/LSx + bus turbo.

Road_Terrorist
02-02-10, 01:31 PM
Dear Mr Road Terrorist, suggest you look at the S38 engine which powered the E34 M5 , it's an evolution of the M88 and is dohc, straight 6.

I simply said the 24v DOHC 535i didn't exist, not that a 24v DOHC 5 series doesn't exist.

As I understood it Forg was basically just inquiring as to whether there was a non M 24v DOHC six that might offer a cheaper, more available alternative to the M5 engine. He was correct in recalling that there was a DOHC 24v six in the E34 mid life update, however these engines were small capacity to replace the old SOHC 12v M20 'small six', while new V8s replaced the old M30 'big six', which couldn't keep up with emissions legislation.

Road_Terrorist
02-02-10, 02:12 PM
didnt think it was worth starting a new thread so i'll hijack

seems cheap, something seems not right about it tho

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BMW-635-CSI_W0QQitemZ250571507671QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car s?hash=item3a5739c7d7

That's the early version of the 6 series, it has the older E12 style engine and interior and the rest of the chassis is all E12 based as well, which means parts are a little harder to find in comparison to the later 6 series which had E28 style underpinnings, they are also rarer than the later model. The old 3.5L engines usually put out 160odd kw unlike the later mid 80s Australian market ones are restricted to about 135kw and are almost all were automatics and weigh a lot more due to all the extra standard equipment at that time.

Being a JPS it could well have the close ratio 5 speed and almost certainly a LSD and upgraded suspension. A genuine Black early model JPS with BBS wheels and a manual ticks all the right boxes for 6 series desirability, the only thing better would be an M88 powered M635CSi or an Alpina version, so it would probably be worth restoring dependings on just how badly rotted it is underneath (front wings especially rust very badly on the inside). Even if the body is completely rotten there are probably enough good parts to reshell another 6 series or sell off the parts individually. If restored to a good standard I would imagine it would probably be worth somewhere around $25-30,000 depending on the market at the time. I'd want to inspect it very closely before making any financial commitment though, the description doesn't give much away and those small photos dont really give much idea of the interior condition or what it's like underneath or in the boot.

morerevsm3
02-02-10, 03:04 PM
the only thing better would be an M88 powered M635CSi or an Alpina that has not been anywhere near Imre (Alpina Australia).

fixed*

morerevsm3
02-02-10, 06:57 PM
something different, turbo S50B30 M3, guy plans on being quickest and fastest BMW powered BMW in the world. still street registered too
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1107373

msmola2002
02-02-10, 07:05 PM
Being a JPS

The font on the sticker doesn't look right to me. Plenty of fake jps stuff getting round - I usd to own a fake E21 JPS - it was a 318i E21, and one of our 02s allegedly had JPS seats. they were normal E21 318i seats and someone had embossed "JPS" in yellow on the headrests.

5 bucks on it being a garden variety 6 with some gold vinyl...

cheapracer
03-02-10, 12:23 AM
just look for a written off McLaren.

there were a few versions of that engine including the stroke

Yeah one that was torn in half leaving 2 x 6 cylinder engines laying on the ground.

floody
04-02-10, 04:15 PM
If restored to a good standard I would imagine it would probably be worth somewhere around $25-30,000 depending on the market at the time.

There is a perfect, like PERFECT late 635CSI for sale here in Hobart for $23k. By your reasoning it'd be worth buying to onsell if someone would pay $30k for a dicky old reshell?

http://tinyurl.com/ycblduh $23k, and its been there for about 8 months. It is low kms, and mint.

Marv
04-02-10, 05:40 PM
you say that like its a bad thing?

??

Scandos are mad bastards and their turbo S38s have all the longevity of a rotary.

You could muck about with turbo S engines but IMO if you're going to swap a powerful engine in you may as well pick something that will make good power and set the weight back (LSx) or if you have to keep a BMW motor build the best bang/buck motor (M52). The S38 are a heavy old engine, a 2jay is stronger and 11ty cheaper. I guess a BMW N54 twin turbo motor would give good gains, but again cost makes it very prohibative.


in a 6er you should be Able to fit a Viper V10 too...

peterz
04-02-10, 08:48 PM
Have they single turbo'd an N54 yet...? begging for a large single...

SCH
05-02-10, 12:45 PM
Have they single turbo'd an N54 yet...? begging for a large single...


yep - N55, same peak outputs, slightly different torque curve, lower emmisions and better economy... apparently "less tune-able" though...

peterz
05-02-10, 03:18 PM
I was hoping in the aftermarket scene... 135/335i is begging for a GT35!