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Thread: LPG fuel injection

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    LPG fuel injection

    What happend to that mob that had the LPG injection technology? They claimed equal top end power compared to petrol and heaps more bottom end and midrage with the only changes being the LPG injection system. The injectors were driven of the ECU just like on petrol. Probs they were having at the time were the injectors freezing.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 08-04-06 at 08:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1uzusee View Post
    That's assuming that in 100yrs we will need Iron Ore/Gas/Coal etc. Thankfully, Labor has introduced the Carbon Tax, so in 100yrs we be able to build cars, buildings and boats from Tea Leafs and hugs.

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    Resident Oaf Jim's Avatar
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    http://www.gas-injection.com/index.html

    I dont know anyone that has fitted the system but would like to hear if anyone has!
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    I wish there was more tech info in that site. This sounds almost too good to be true. I wonder why it isn't being used everywhere. I wonder what the costs are? I reckon it would be sweet on a turbocharged engine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1uzusee View Post
    That's assuming that in 100yrs we will need Iron Ore/Gas/Coal etc. Thankfully, Labor has introduced the Carbon Tax, so in 100yrs we be able to build cars, buildings and boats from Tea Leafs and hugs.

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    Opens Forg's Avatar
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    A few Swedish folk on my Ovlov mailing-list insist that LPG "LPi" (Liquid Phase Injection) has been available for yonks over there.
    Unfortunately I'd don't have any useful information ...
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    Damn Swedes again!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1uzusee View Post
    That's assuming that in 100yrs we will need Iron Ore/Gas/Coal etc. Thankfully, Labor has introduced the Carbon Tax, so in 100yrs we be able to build cars, buildings and boats from Tea Leafs and hugs.

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    stupidhead browny's Avatar
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    Another I've seen. http://www.profire.com.au
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    Registered User Turbo 351's Avatar
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    I was down at a LPG place last week, and he claims there are quite a few companies doing it now, he mentioned Impco, Sprintgas, torquegas and another Euro brand. They were in the $3.5K+ price range.
    From what i gathered, they are vapour injection, not liquid injection, so they use a regulator that converts the liquid to vapour, and keeps it pressurised enough to inject thru "large" injectors as a vapour, this overcomes the old "freezing" problems they used to have.
    HTH

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    Non player character GTSBoy's Avatar
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    Yeah, vapour phase injection seems to be the smart move. Liquid phase was never going to work well. Too hard to push that much heat into such a small area (the end of a liquid injector). You have seen how big a converter is. They are that size for a reason. You need some surface area for heat exchange.

    cheers
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    Ready... Take aim... oldcorollas's Avatar
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    does anyone know anywhere in Aus that can actually supply the vapour Keihin injectors?
    "I'm a retarded Doctor, not a retarded Mechanic"

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    stupidhead browny's Avatar
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    The profire link I posted....
    Put that in your pipe and smoke it

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    Registered User Fraud's Avatar
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    if you want to run the LPG vapour injection with boost, you're gonna run into a number of problems.

    Have a look at this guys site for all the info you could need about this

    http://zymo.homemail.com.au/bmw2.htm

    start reading from the post on the 6/2/06 (or read the whole thing if you want to see an interesting build up). Needless to say i was crushed when i read this because I'd been planning to do pretty much the exact same thing (but with a turbocharger), and was waiting to see the outcome.

    he also lists details of how to get hold of the injectors

    I've pretty much shelved the idea of LPG in my car now... I don't like the idea of a single point setup (not optimised per cylinder, plenum full of fuel waiting ot go bang etc. etc), but i'd convert a daily in a heartbeat, and/or consider building a tough NA motor using LPG...
    Quote Originally Posted by myshortyboomba View Post
    I've had many gauges in cars. I always found the conrods react faster than a gauge.

    you can always hear them when they break and they stop the engine immediately so you can't do any more damage.

  12. #12
    Ready... Take aim... oldcorollas's Avatar
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    it is a bit of a problem

    the butane content is varied with season to alter the vapour pressure, but even so, butane containing gas may not be good enough..

    here is vapour pressure of propane for different temps..
    apparently Supagas is 100% propane, if you can get it in your area.
    is heating the tank via the engine coolant feasable? is it posible to get a booster pump for LPG?
    Last edited by oldcorollas; 09-04-06 at 02:11 PM.
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    Registered User Fraud's Avatar
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    the booster pump for LPG is a curly one...

    you'd need a pump that was taking 70psi or so on the inlet side, and compressing it more than pumping it... It'd need to be one tough unit to not blow into a million pieces... and i reckon you'd also run the risk of turning it back into a liquid.. well, to a point..

    Pure propane seems to be a good way to look at things, but how common is it in australia? (serious question, i don't know)... like, i'd imagine if i was driving from cairns to perth i'd have a few problems along the way trying to fill up...

    heating the tank could be an option... but if you fill it up when the tank is heated, and then the day heats up later on you could end up spitting alot out the relief valve.. you'd probaly also end up having difficulties if the tank was getting low and you'd just started the car... its also alot of piping, it wouldn't be consistent etc. etc.

    i imagine you could also set up an ECU to limit boost when the LPG pressure is dropping, and give you some kind of warning at the same time. in fact, i think even if you found a way for it to work, and be stable, you'd still want to have this set up just in case..
    Quote Originally Posted by myshortyboomba View Post
    I've had many gauges in cars. I always found the conrods react faster than a gauge.

    you can always hear them when they break and they stop the engine immediately so you can't do any more damage.

  14. #14
    Non player character GTSBoy's Avatar
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    Best bet would be to pump up the liquid LPG with a normal(ish) fuel pump to a pressure that you can then regulate on a return line to the tank (and the pump ensures that you have the pressure requird to put LPG back IN the tank).

    And then you might need the regulator to be a bit tricky in that you might want to vary the setting on it according to temperature, in order to allow for the variation of vapour pressure with temperature (because the vapour pressure will be over an above the regualted liquid pressure).

    A fairly complex system, but one that would work.
    cheers
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    Big Block Ford 545 cubes! XEFalconUte's Avatar
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    To start I believe you would want to keep the temp of the vapor around 20 degrees Celsius to keep the vapor as dense as possible without running the risk of creating droplets of liquid messing with your metering and distribution. You MUST keep the temp of the gas below 60 degrees Celsius to prevent the formation and accumulation of paraffinís, and hydrocarbon heavy ends, they will leave deposits in the injectors again messing with metering.

    The best way to do this is to regulate the temperature of the gas with a thermostat to control the coolant outlet of the vaporizer. Better if you are able to actually able to control the flow using the actual gas temp and not the coolant temp. I hear that "Dual Curve" otherwise know as msd offer a thermostat to do this but itís not mentioned on their website.

    I like GTSBoys idea of a temperature compensating pressure regulator.

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    Hello All

    I am one of the designers of ProFIRE Engine Management, so I may be able to help out with some info on LPG injection.

    The biggest problem that you will come across with LPG injection is that it is fairly new so all of the companies involved are very secretive and the LPG industry is heavily regulated, whuch means parts are only supposed to be sold to licensed gas fitters and the systems are not allowed to be end user adjustable

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    Great links and discussion guys.

    I was thinking it would be a waste of energy to heat up the LPG then inject it. A cool charge would be good for power, but then you have the prob of freezing. What about a gas to air intercooler? The intercooler could act as the convertor and also give the possibility to get below ambient intake temps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1uzusee View Post
    That's assuming that in 100yrs we will need Iron Ore/Gas/Coal etc. Thankfully, Labor has introduced the Carbon Tax, so in 100yrs we be able to build cars, buildings and boats from Tea Leafs and hugs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkazz
    Hello All

    I am one of the designers of ProFIRE Engine Management, so I may be able to help out with some info on LPG injection.

    The biggest problem that you will come across with LPG injection is that it is fairly new so all of the companies involved are very secretive and the LPG industry is heavily regulated, whuch means parts are only supposed to be sold to licensed gas fitters and the systems are not allowed to be end user adjustable
    Welcome to the forum Good to have you onboard.

    What is the ultimate power potential of these systems compared to petrol? I know you can beat the stock petrols power, but what if you developed foced induction petrol engine and a LPG injected engine to similar extents? How would they stack up? (ignoring the low tank pressure issues for the moment)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1uzusee View Post
    That's assuming that in 100yrs we will need Iron Ore/Gas/Coal etc. Thankfully, Labor has introduced the Carbon Tax, so in 100yrs we be able to build cars, buildings and boats from Tea Leafs and hugs.

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    Ready... Take aim... oldcorollas's Avatar
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    propane/butane is poorly placed in terms of vapour pressure vs temp for boosted applications
    to low a temp (like 20C) the vapour pressure is too low.
    too high and liquid injection is not possible withought very high pressures...

    hmmm.... vapur pressures of CNG? doesn't it have higher tank pressure cos it doesn't liquify?

    edit: right..CNG is justa wee bit higher and volumes required.. and tank weight etc etc....

    hmm, ethane/propane mix?

    propane could possibly work with forced induction if injectors required a lower pressure drop (previously i had thought the keihin were 1 bar, not 2.55bar drop...)... similar to pressure refenced impco etc... hrmmmmm
    Last edited by oldcorollas; 09-04-06 at 10:22 PM.
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    Max power is limited by the tank and lpg regulator. LPG tanks have an excess flow regulator that cuts off the supply if the flow becomes too high. At this stage the max power we have acheived from 1 regulator and 1 tank is 350hp. We are in the process of instaling injection on a stroked 460 using 2 tanks and 2 regs, the engine is capble of 600+ hp on petrol and we believe we will get the same or better on LPG.

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    I forgot to mention that I have a 6 inch exhaust tip on my ford laser, it is the most integral part in allowing the LPG injection to produce 175kw, the 15 psi of boost only plays a small part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradkazz
    I forgot to mention that I have a 6 inch exhaust tip on my ford laser, it is the most integral part in allowing the LPG injection to produce 175kw, the 15 psi of boost only plays a small part.
    Sweet. Do you also sell the exhaust tips?


















    175kw is great for a laser
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 09-04-06 at 11:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1uzusee View Post
    That's assuming that in 100yrs we will need Iron Ore/Gas/Coal etc. Thankfully, Labor has introduced the Carbon Tax, so in 100yrs we be able to build cars, buildings and boats from Tea Leafs and hugs.

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    use the converter fluid system to cool a water/air IC?
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    Big Block Ford 545 cubes! XEFalconUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nero
    use the converter fluid system to cool a water/air IC?
    Latent heat of vapourisation:

    Petrol 140 Btu/lb
    Propane 183 Btu/lb
    Methanol 474 Btu/lb

    Less than I would have thought. So I'm suggesting probably not.

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    So what you are saying is that even though gas convertors freeze up, there is not really enough cooling effect there to bother with?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1uzusee View Post
    That's assuming that in 100yrs we will need Iron Ore/Gas/Coal etc. Thankfully, Labor has introduced the Carbon Tax, so in 100yrs we be able to build cars, buildings and boats from Tea Leafs and hugs.

  26. #26
    Ready... Take aim... oldcorollas's Avatar
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    surely it must aid a WTA system somewhat... even if there is little cooling, every bit helps.....
    i mean not as the sole source of cooling, but with normal ATW and WTA exchangers also...
    Last edited by oldcorollas; 11-04-06 at 02:25 AM.
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    2JZ EL Fairmont tandy ass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31
    So what you are saying is that even though gas convertors freeze up, there is not really enough cooling effect there to bother with?
    It takes my LPG converter around 5-10 minutes to freeze up at idle before I realised I didn't plumb it in. So I'd say you're right...
    Quote Originally Posted by paul05
    don't waste your time asking questions about real cars on the rice forum go to ls1 .com ,it's alot more accommodating and informative than pf.
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  28. #28
    Ready... Take aim... oldcorollas's Avatar
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    thats at idle with little gas flow.... try unhooking it and running full noise.. how long then?
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  29. #29
    2JZ EL Fairmont tandy ass's Avatar
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    My point is the amount of cooling it provides is insignificant to helping reduce intake temperatures.
    Quote Originally Posted by paul05
    don't waste your time asking questions about real cars on the rice forum go to ls1 .com ,it's alot more accommodating and informative than pf.
    WTB in Melb - Ford AU 6 cyl engine - needs to be in good condition

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    Registered User Fraud's Avatar
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    however, for liquid LPG injection, the evaporation (and the cooling that comes from it) doesnt occur until its IN the combustion chamber, and i dunno... i reckon that can't be a bad thing at all!
    Quote Originally Posted by myshortyboomba View Post
    I've had many gauges in cars. I always found the conrods react faster than a gauge.

    you can always hear them when they break and they stop the engine immediately so you can't do any more damage.

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