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Thread: Fiat 131 Sports Sedan

  1. #1381
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    Packaging, it's all about packaging.

    I'm guessing there is no space left to run it from the front of the engine, what with intercooler plumbing and a dry sump pump and everything....

  2. #1382
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Correct, there is not much room for activities there. Also helps for weight distribution.

    The alternator was another pain in the arse. It was an old big 70s BMW thing made obsolete by Bosch and kept breaking stator wires. It also wouldn't start charging until -3000 in 3rd from memory. Now has a new AU Falcon alt and is charging from around 1200 in 2nd.

    Jamie - I get what you're saying but it is jumping the gun at this stage. Once I get comfortable in the car I'll be able to provide more useful feedback. Definitely keen on hearing about the options available though.
    Last edited by Guido; 28-03-17 at 10:28 AM.
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  3. #1383
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cossie55 View Post
    Have you considered running traction control rather than lowering the boost.

    From my experience in running a high boost turbo car, with TC (when allowed), it really fixes the traction issues, whilst still keeping plenty of boost on board for when the grip becomes available.

    Lowering the boost will mean that the car has less boost than you can use in the higher gears, and when tyres get warmer.
    Haltech bro
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  4. #1384
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    We can do boost per gear Samoyed, but you can only run spring pressure as the lowest boost.

    That was 14 PSI when I had it on the dyno (400 HP run), so likely need to dual port control to run lower and bulk time in the Haltech/Dyno again. It would make it a much easier and faster car to drive though - I'm with Cossie.
    Jason Broadhurst

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  5. #1385
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    Some of this is going to be obvious.

    You don't have too much power, you just have too much power in some circumstances, so as you know, the fundamental task is going to be to reduce the power when you don't need it and increase it where you do.

    you will be limited by the options that your ECU may provide, but there are some basics. Certainly lowering the spring pressure and running boost per gear is a simple method as Jason has said. It will work fine to help make the car more drivable.

    But Traction control itself, where allowed, is better in my opinion. it is not as inflexible as boost per gear. Traction control will give you more power when the tyres and track have more grip and less power when there is not as much grip.

    Traction control regardless of ECU brand will be a better more reactive response to lack of grip at times, and allow you to maintain boost until the grip arrives.

  6. #1386
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    Jason - spring pressure seems to be 16psi. Holds this pretty consistently. With the chopper wheel on the output shaft and the mount for the hall effect sensor already there, a lot of the hard work is done. How can the dual port control run lower than gate pressure??

    Jamie - agree, and have mentioned it, I am quite comfortable with the power, just not its delivery. I can see how traction control would be the best method, however I only have a PS1000, funds are just not there for it.

    I'd still rather not make any wholesale changes until I am at a track I know well and have gotten some more seat time.
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  7. #1387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    Jamie - agree, and have mentioned it, I am quite comfortable with the power, just not its delivery. I can see how traction control would be the best method, however I only have a PS1000, funds are just not there for it.
    Get a second job.
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  8. #1388
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Sorry I should clarify. You should run a dual port solenoid and actuator with a lower spring pressure. Dual port actuators and solenoids are better at controlling boost far above spring pressure.

    I kid a little, but the PS1000 has enough to get you a good part of the way to a solution. Boost per gear with a 7 PSI spring and the same gate you have now will suffice. Then a dial for boost fine tuning when you need.

    I've done that exact setup on a tarmac rally car and a PS1000 FJ20.

    The only cost is feeding me beer, Scotty some Macca's for the dyno and a new spring.
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  9. #1389
    Registered User burn is weird's Avatar
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    you have a few options here. if you have a spare 3 port lying around you just run two solenoids instead of changing to a 4 port.

    if you have a spare Digital output on the PS1000, you just need to connect the new second 3 port to the upper chamber of the actuator and select boost control as its output, but INVERT the output to this one in the ECU settings. then it is the anti phase of the normal boost control solenoid.

    Other option if you dont have a spare digital output would be to wire in parallel both solenoids to the same digital output you use for boost control, but connect the pneumatic ports of the new solenoid the other way around (use the NC port instead of NO) to the upper chamber. I've never done it this way, but would theoretically work the same, as when the boost control output is ACTIVE, the lifting pressure of the lower chamber is vented, and the holding down pressure of top chamber is applied.

    if you do decide to go a 4 port, make sure you find a MAC valve that has a 12 watt solenoid on it (look on ebay)

    the standard one has a 5.4watt one and at 30hz its control range is only about 20-60% duty. which is shit because a 4 port is very sensitive and an effective control band of 40% is poor resolution. a 1% change in duty can mean several PSI.

    with the 12w solenoid running at 20hz, your effective control range is more like 10-80% which is double the control resolution. which is good.

    you would need to put a lower tension spring in the wastegate (5-7psi is plenty if your wastegate is designed properly, diaphram to valve are ratio should be around 2:1, meaning with a 5psi spring, the gate will hold (2 x boost + 5)psi worth of exhaust backpressure. 20psi boost will hold against 45psi of EMAP. as you have said, the spring you choose will dictate minimum pressure you can run.

    you want one of these if you go the 4 port method:

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Boost-Sol...-/231871863736
    Last edited by burn is weird; 29-03-17 at 01:38 PM.

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  10. #1390
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Great, thanks for the info. Currently running just a 3 port jobbie. So I may as well just buy the 4 port you linked now.

    JB - what do you think? Can I get you to wire in the 4 port and the hall effect sensor on the tailshaft to set up later?? And the dial for some fine tuning?

    On my previous Fiat we trialed boost by TPS and making it come on later and more gentle. Pretty sure it was just a 3 port MAC valve. It was shit. The car lost all its response, felt doughy and just didn't seem to get into its stride until 5000+ in 3rd. I definitely don't want that. I'd like to keep the responsiveness, I just don't want to blow the tyres off in 3rd just by tapping the throttle mid corner.

    What are people's thoughts on how boost by road speed should be set up given the car needs to be driveable? And realistically don't want to be running any more than 20psi in 4th/5th. 7psi spring increasing up to say 12-13 by TPS, max 13-14 for road speeds equating to 3rd gear, 4th 16-18 & 5th max of 20?? Then be able to dial it back from there?
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

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  11. #1391
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    I met up with Sam at Wakefield, not only to met him but hopefully see my old mans old Fiat race car that he raced in the early-mid seventies. It's still racing now and I think is the longest continuing raced Fiat in the country. Unfortunately the guy couldn't bring it down from QLD. It was great seeing the pig in then flesh, and I didn't get to see it run on the track, as I had to head back to Sydney.
    Congrats for getting some laps in Sam, and you did well in it considering the little time you've had behind the wheel. It's a great looking car and I'm sure you'll have a ball trying to master it.
    Here is a few shots I took on the day.










  12. #1392
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    Wow, they are top shots! Thanks heaps Matt! Do you mind if we use them for T124 with credits of course?

    It's a shame your father's car wasn't out there but I hope you got to see a bit anyways. BTW, the old car is much closer to your home, it's down past the Gong in Jasper's Brush.
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    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

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  13. #1393
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    Thanks Sam, happy for you to share them.
    I'm sure i'll see it soon. I had a file of old photo's of it in period to show him.

  14. #1394
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    Cheers mate. Keen to purchase the high res copies too, they'd look great in the man cave!!
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  15. #1395
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    You have road speed don't you?
    Jason Broadhurst

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  16. #1396
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    Yep, chopper wheel on the output shaft, mounts for the sensor and a fresh sensor ready to go.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

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