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Thread: Fiat 131 Sports Sedan

  1. #1351
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Yep, a couple of spares.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  2. #1352
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Hopefully these do as a good a job of filtering E85 without blocking as they did of lightening my wallet.
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    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  3. #1353
    Registered User dougmo's Avatar
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    i used them for ages on e85 with no issues

  4. #1354
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    On a car which is run infrequently though? The filter is there to stop the gumming up getting to injectors.

    Stop the gumming up is just as important.
    Jason Broadhurst

    Someone once asked me if they could use my mower. I said "sure, so long as it doesn't leave my yard"

  5. #1355
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    the bald guy is right. frequent startups is what will stop the e85 sludge issue.

  6. #1356
    Registered User dougmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Broadhurst View Post
    On a car which is run infrequently though? The filter is there to stop the gumming up getting to injectors.

    Stop the gumming up is just as important.
    yes on a race only car that was only used a few times a year, raw aluminium fuel and surge tanks too, never once flushed the system, never an issue

    only time i did have a gumming issue was on bosch 2200 injectors when they were left exposed to air when the engine was out for a period of time

  7. #1357
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Guys it's not the gumming up that's the problem. It's the Ryco paper filters internally swelling up and blocking. They're just not able to cope with the ethanol. I've never had a problem with that grey sludge but on both this car and the last Fiat I have had the Rycos fail. I start the car and get it to temp at least once a fortnight and usually keep a full tank of fuel in it.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  8. #1358
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Back on the dyno today in the rediculous heat/humidity. Back to gate pressure and it was able to hold a stable 16psi. Result being 404rwhp. This is going to do me for quite some time.

    With the car off the dyno and parked I noticed a coolant drip. After a bit of investigation it was coming from the water pump. The pump has a custom toothed gear that is pressed on a boss which is in turn pressed on the factory shaft. The gear itself had come loose off the boss, slid back and munched the water pump. Awesome. Anyways, a call at 2:30 pm to my peoples, a drive to the northside and I had a brand new factory pump in my possession by 4:30pm. Dropped the pump out tonight and dropped it off to a mate with press who transfer the boss and gear to the new pump. Might spot weld the gear on too.

    One day this car is going to stop fighting me.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  9. #1359
    Registered User I'm DJ!'s Avatar
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    Good stuff Sam. At least it's on the dyno, not the first lap of an interstate event :-)
    DJ's don't need sigs

  10. #1360
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Yep. Yesterday I replaced the studs that needed replacing, cleaned the threads on the wheel bolts, put the flat floor back on and dropped it on the ground. Unfortunately it munched the toothed water pump, Performance Wholesale have some used for dry sump belts which should do the trick. A mate's picking one up for me tomorrow.

    Then it's just a case of wopping the pump on with new belt, rad hoses, fresh coolant and it can go on the trailer ready for practice on the weekend.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  11. #1361
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    The only belt that I could get was ~5.5mm wider and clearance is tight. Basically rubs tight up against the flanges (hehehe) of the crank pulley. But it slides in. hehehe. So water pump back on, fresh coolant and kicked it in the guts. No leaks and belt clears everywhere.

    Just topped off the tank. All I need to do before Sunday is give it a quick wash, on the trailer and fill up a few jerries.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  12. #1362
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    So had a few dramas leading up to the nats. A week or so after the last post I headed out for my first test day. A couple of gentle laps to warm everything up and the first hit down the front straight was wheelspin through 3rd, into 4th, 5th then doof. Thought I blew a cooler pipe. Did a cool down lap and came in. Cooler pipes all good. Turbo fucked. Again. This time it was obvious something went through it. Air filter wasn't cleaned out from the first blow up and a blade from the first one went through the 2nd.

    So yeah, I pretty much wrote everything off. Still hadn't done a lap in anger ever with the whole car together. But a good mate of mine wouldn't hear of it. So the turbo was rebuilt, costs covered. Intercooler soaked in fuel and drained. But quite a bit of metal was found in the first oil filter. All oil lines were flushed, dry sump tank flushed, new gauze, dry sump pan removed and cleaned, two caps pulled, bearings looked ok. Put back together.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  13. #1363
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    With no time left for testing we headed down to the nats. Coming into Port Mac the alt light starts showing every time the clutch is depressed in the Hilux. Fuck. Alternator fucked out on the most overly maintained unbreakable car. Called NRMA so we could get contacts. 7:30am called Bursons (30 minutes before their start), they said they could get me one by 9 and they'd call by 8:15. 8:10 old mate called and said it was waiting for me. 8:45 we were back on the road.

    So fast forward to Friday 10 March. I head out for the first session and do a couple of very gentle laps just making sure things are ok. Get under it for the first time, brake for the hairpin and red light flashes showing 99 degrees coolant temp. Fuck. So I cruise around but it keeps going up. Cut the ignition and coast into the pits. Water pump pulley has spun off, belt nowhere to be seen. Awesome.

    Anyways a mate comes in and tells me he's seen the belt. It gets retrieved but it is pretty cut up through the centre. Called multiple likely suppliers in Goulburn but it's all pretty bespoke so no luck. So we put it back together and think fuck it, lets do some laps.

    I headed back out there for the arvo sessions and had some fun. It seemed as if just as I started getting some comfort (ie 2 laps) the session would be red or yellow flagged. So I was damn slow, really trying to come to grips with a tricky car when I hadn't been on the track in a few years on a track I don't really know. That said the car was driven back on the trailer at the end of the day, I had shit loads of fun and came 2nd outright and 1st in class.

    Not the quickest of the day but meh. And yes, shit driving. I was braking very early and a gear too low through much of that lap. Adding my quickest sectors together I was 1.5 seconds quicker, that's how inconsistent I was with my ~10 hot laps!



    What we learnt:

    1) I was way too much of a pussy to get the massive rubber anywhere near up to temp
    2) the power delivery is aggressive, anything over 4,500rpm and 1/4 throttle = 16 psi & wheelspin. Even through 3rd in a straight line.
    3) the above may not be so bad if I'm not a pussy and actually get the tyres up to temp by driving properly
    4) every body with twin DCOEs and "fast road cams" thought I was too aggressive with the throttle

    So looking forward to getting the car out to QR so I can test on a track I know!!
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  14. #1364
    On the dais Greg Rust's Avatar
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    Wow so many trials and tribulations.
    Re gumming up E85, I had the accelerator pump check valve in the carby seize up after car was sitting around for a few months but nothing serious.
    xw Falcon 393 full race cam, NGK spark plugs.

  15. #1365
    Registered User 333pg333's Avatar
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    Mate that's a cool starting point. Not bad at all. Gearing didn't help but nothing you could do about that. Bugger if there isn't always something fucking up but at least it was minor and yes, you drove it home in one piece to fight another day!
    Looks fun and plenty of potential. As for traction...all I keep hearing and reading his how difficult it is to setup a proper traction control module...so you'll have to rely on right foot a bit longer. You should be able to setup gear or throttle position boost, no?

  16. #1366
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Initially my first thought was the gearing was a little off but it is mostly me. My corner speed was so slow that I wasn't using the next gear up, should have been using 4th a lot more than 3rd. In my last session of the day I was short changing into 4th just before the right hander before the fish hook and then short changing into 4th again just after the fish hook and driving through that right hander on full noise in 4th. It felt a lot better and the logging showed potential but the track had gone off so much that I was no faster.

    Yeah, traction is a big issue at the moment. Just breathing on the throttle in 3rd with any angle on the wheel and there was wheel spin, this meant corner exit was woeful. Once again, I think a lot of that comes down to me. I just wasn't getting any temp into the tyres. My suspension bloke reckons these old style Dunlop slicks on this car will need 3 committed laps before they get into their sweet spot. 1) I just wasn't committed enough, pussy footing about 2) I never got 3 laps on full noise before there was a red/yellow flag.

    So first things first is to get some actual seat time on a track that I know well, QR. Once I am getting tyre temps up and am driving the car to an acceptable standard then we can assess what to do with power delivery and rear end set up.

    I won't make any firm decisions until then but some things working in the back of my head are as follows:

    * 4,000rpm in 3rd is a waste of time currently. Just crack the throttle a tiny amount and BANG!! 16PSI. So the motor is working very well getting that 35r up on song. So I think a 10psi spring and then use boost control to gradually feed it in by throttle position will work better here. I have a chopper wheel on the output shaft of the box and mount for a hall effect sensor. Boost by road speed is another option.
    * tyres that take so long to come up to temp are silly. Once these have done their dash I'm converting to more modern Hankooks. The fronts will change from the 290/625/16 to a 260/610/16 and I'll have Whitehorse make up some 18" outers for my existing centres on the rear. These will change from a 310/650/16 to a 280/650/18.

    And laps, laps, laps!! Then probably:

    * getting rid of the 334x32 single piece road car discs and going to a proper floating set up.
    * decent rear shocks & an adjustable roll centre watts link

    The car's power & mid range is great. While 100+ RWHP more is just a keyboard tap away that will only make me slower! I just need to work on myself and how the power is transmitted to the road.

    Interestingly there was a bloke with a pretty serious LC Torana sports sedan out with us. Great guys and awesome car. Complete space frame, TTi sequential 6 speed, diffuser powered by a Nissan FJ20 & GTX3076. He was 1.5 seconds quicker than me but in his own words couldn't keep with me down the straights. His Torrie is apparently ~860kgs and 350RWKW but my Fiat is currently 950kgs and 300RWKW??
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  17. #1367
    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    Would it be worth turning it right down so you can get a handle on it? Also agree on going to a narrower tyre, the clubman guys usually prefer a narrower tyre because they can get heat in them and make them work.

    Not much point worrying about the first test, you'll need bulk laps to work out suspension, tyre pressures, how much power etc.

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  18. #1368
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    16psi is gate pressure, so as low as it goes. But as mentioned, it's not so much how much power but how it is delivered like a sledgehammer. But yeah, not much point in over thinking anything for the time being.

    Here's some pics a mate took. I know I'm a little biased, but fuck it's a good looking race car.







    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  19. #1369
    LS7 Prius = Proper HYBRID Walt Kowalski's Avatar
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    That's COOL!
    Logical debate beats name calling any day. My Badges Of Honour so far in PF: Racist, Bigot, Islamaphobe, Numpty, Moron, Far Right Wing Nationalist, Far Fight Wing Fascist, "raving fucking lunatic", "dumb" & climate "denier". AND they are just SOME of the pathetic tags that I've been labelled by SOME here. HINT: Those labels are signs that the accusers have lost to logical debate.

    Maybe it's time for them to check some facts. Here's a good starting point: http://www.mostdamagingwikileaks.com

  20. #1370
    Registered User Fondles's Avatar
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    Fuck me that speedo sure climbs quickly !
    Quote Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
    Fondles, you come across as a thoroughly repugnant cunt with appalling social skills.

  21. #1371
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    Good stuff, great when you finally get some track time in something you've spent so much, time, effort and emotion on.

  22. #1372
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    So I'll get the water pump off today and we'll find a better solution for attaching the pulley to the shaft. Also need to find a narrower belt.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  23. #1373
    aka SpaZdA (tm) mondo2000's Avatar
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    Why no electric water pump?

  24. #1374
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    That's certainly a consideration. But for the time being I'd rather just get this working well. Any brands you can recommend?

    It's a custom pulley arrangement on a factory pump. Previously the gear was pressed onto a boss which was pressed onto the pump shaft. The failure occurred with the gear spinning off the boss. So the boss and gear were welded together this time. But unfortunately the new pumps shaft is a slightly smaller diameter. So three flats were ground into it and the pulley located by 3 grub screws loctited in. We think the wider belt has provided too much side loading and vibrated the grub screws loose. Need the narrower belt and a better way of locating the pulley.
    Last edited by Guido; 27-03-17 at 08:52 AM.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  25. #1375
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    And what's the typical current draw on an electric pump? Something I should be mindful of with the alternator spinning off the tailshaft.
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  26. #1376
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    Be less of a skirt and just roast it down the straight on the second lap once everything else is up to temp, on the brake a little if need be. That will solve your rear rubber heat issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi View Post
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  27. #1377
    Opens Guido's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post
    Be less of a skirt and just roast it down the straight on the second lap once everything else is up to temp, on the brake a little if need be. That will solve your rear rubber heat issues.
    How's that going to help the fronts?
    Rust is lighter than carbon fibre.

    My Sports Sedan

  28. #1378
    Registered User PXL265's Avatar
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    Well, when you run out of road and in a blind panic mash the brake pedal the fronts will lock up giving you a very hot, albeit flat, patch on the tyre to help with grip......

  29. #1379
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    Have you considered running traction control rather than lowering the boost.

    From my experience in running a high boost turbo car, with TC (when allowed), it really fixes the traction issues, whilst still keeping plenty of boost on board for when the grip becomes available.

    Lowering the boost will mean that the car has less boost than you can use in the higher gears, and when tyres get warmer.

  30. #1380
    aka SpaZdA (tm) mondo2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guido View Post
    And what's the typical current draw on an electric pump? Something I should be mindful of with the alternator spinning off the tailshaft.
    The Davies Craig ones draw about 10 amps max. When they first came out (in the 90s?) they used to shit themselves fairly frequently, I think they have been refined a lot since then. A few IPRA cars use them, I haven't heard of any failures.

    Can someone explain the alternator running off tailshaft thing to me? I have never understood why. The major electrical loads (fuel pumps, injectors, ignition system) seem to be proportional to engine RPM (as well as load). Yes I know spinning a generator faster increases the voltage not the current, but buck regulation. And you can turn the excitation field off for maximum powers.

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