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Thread: 2jz-gte n/a info (wtf i know)

  1. #31
    dangerous fugitive
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    your info on the max hp potential of the hemis is, a touch, off. But frankly havng read the rest of this thread, I think that that is for the best...

    let's be honest here, this is a nonsense question and will never happen (at least it ought never happen). ANYONE who tries to make 450bhp NA from what is a 3 litre 6 (even if you can stretch it to 4L) is nuts unless they are doing so to promote their business, or get a dyno record or something. It'll be an impractical, short lifespan pig of an engine compared to even the most basic ghetto turbo buildup. An NA engine with that sort of output at peak, would have a narrow powerband, and not just require multiple gears (whereas the turbo variant could easily cope with as little as 3 or 4 max) but they'd also have to be particularly close ratio - so you'll be up for about, oh, I dunno 5 grand or so for the gearbox with a completely custom gearset....

    i'll tell you why there isn't a 6 litre inline 6 - it's because that means each cylinder requires a full litre of air to fill it and the sort of port/valve arrangement is far from practical, and it'd have to be targetted for a specific rpm range to get it all to work. To say nothing of the sort of piston speeds (if you get more capacity from a longer stroke) or piston weight (if from bore size) to go to that sort of capacity - neither of which goes hand in hand with high rpms. Far better to run 8 or even 10-12 more reasonably sized cylinders and let each one work far more efficiently, and with more rpm flexibility. IHRA pro-stock allowed pretty large engine capacities - and the components last a race meeting, then are all scrapped. things like valve springs last minutes, literally just minutes, total usage. they are the most expensive engines in drag racing.

    FFS, why do think it is that the RBs and Jz motors (hell, even the rotaries) are all turbocharged for the highest performance variants of whatever car they are fitted in. Doesn't that tell you something?

    I'll tell you something else too - the jz heads aren't some sort of magical item that flow huge numbers. Don't get me wrong they aren't bad, but the reason those motors go so hard is they essentially have fuck all trouble dealing with the sort of boost levels that would destroy some other engines in a heartbeat. And yes, it's about what air/fuel you get into the cylinder, not the boost level, but turning up the boost still has that effect in spades....
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  2. #32
    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    Dynoryder strikes again..

    School holidays in the ACT?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
    Rob Sloth Young did i ask for your opinion? no. i only want it for a paddock bomb. go play with traffic.
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    you stupid fucken imbicle.
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    your are a fucken idiot of the highest level.

  3. #33
    Shaved cunt Andrew Bolt's Avatar
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    Wouldn't you just buy a BMW M3 6 cylinder? By the time you reinvent the wheel with a 2JZ to get the same power as a standard M3 donk, you'd have spent at least the purchase price of the standard Bimmer.

    Your English is as retarded as your logic.
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  4. #34
    Registered User TTerror's Avatar
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    Yep, if youre that keen on NA 6 powah, youll never come close to an M3 motor for the price (which itself is not what id call cheap).

    2JZs are highly regarded because theyre overengineered and can handle a shitton of boost/make big power stock, not because they have some fantastically designed heads or even ITBs.

    Pics of your VK before people get any more angrier at your ideas haha

  5. #35
    dangerous fugitive
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    What do the M3 6 cylinders make - 340 bhp or so - at 8000rpm or so? Assuming that they have pretty good volumetric efficiency in their top of the line (and best out of the years of production/countries where it was marketed) 3.2 litre engine, then to make the 450 bhp you'd need to likely spin it to over 10,000rpm to make this 450 flywheel bhp. You can bet they optimised the ports and so forth for it's current capacity and peak rpms, whilst at the same time maintaining an acceptable level of driveability and so forth across the rpm range. A 30% increase in power over what is already a highly developed engine. Closing in on 150bhp per litre. That's the sort of territory british super tourers were getting, and costing what - something outrageous like $1 million bucks to build each car - custom cast heads (and blocks in some cases). CAr manufacturers started backing out of the category due to the ongoing costs. It's also more than Nascar engines have made, and whilst technically a 2v pushrod engine, they would only last a race, and have been subject to insane levels of development for years by well funded teams

    In other words, it'd still be a fucking big ask for the bmw engine. Not impossible, but certainly only realistic for some really hard core racer, or more likely an engine/head specialist who wants to drum up business by going all out.

    HERE'S AN IDEA.....

    Get whichever big six tickles your fancy, including something like a 4wd motor, go some forged pistons, headwork, and a cam that is better than std but still keeps it within the safe rpm limitations of a truck motor (keep the revs down and it'll last forever), and fuel it on 80-85% nitromethane, and the rest methanol (give or take some trace amounts of lubricant for the pump(s) and injectors. Sure it will use about 50 litres per 100km (even driven somewhat sedately) and be expensive to fuel, but it's seriously more sensible than some ridiculous dream of doing it strictly NA and having it even remotely driveable.

    You mentioned an 11:1 comp ratio - so one can only assume that you had plans to run it on pump fuel. Which means you want to clock up some miles on the street. God fucking luck with that. Stuck with such a relatively modest comp ratio, you're limiting the sort of power you might find, and the rpm range/cam specs it'd work with. So frankly nitromethane makes more sense (it makes no sense at all, but relvatively speaking more than your current dream/plan).

    Maybe have a quick look at the (good old) group B rally cars. Back then they had some fairly wide scope for engine choices. And you'll note that the competitive cars all had boost of some description. In contrast look at rover's effort with an NA 3 litre v6. It wasn't even in the running. Or maybe check back to the days when australian touring cars went from group C (which was a fun era) to the then more common and international group A. The v8s were getting their arse handed to them by cars with less than half the capacity and a turbocharger. It was seriously significant enough that it caused a decline in the popularity of the premier category...which didn't really pick back up again till we went to the v8 supercar stuff. Anyway, point being, even highly funded full bore semi factory backed 5 litre cars couldn't beat turbocharged 2 litre ones, how the hell do you think you'll get an NA 6 with 60-70% of the capacity to somehow be a giant killer.

    But I'll tell you what - I'll happily be able to assist you in putting together a hemi that'll put out over 400 flywheel hp, closer to 450, but it'll run you around the $30 grand mark. So basically, once you read this, just pop down to the bank and withdraw the money, reply back here and we'll get the ball rolling. The motor should last around 50-100 drag race passes (and it'll likely require 5-10 blocks as a starting point to find out which ones have the best bore wall thickness to start with. It'll take about 2 months or so to put together (once you allow for various welding/mods to the block to take a roller cam, and to add new cam bearimgs. so the shaft is better supported and won't flex with high valve spring loads etc.

    So then, you'd have your goal - a mere 30 grand or so later..And you could put it into the VK. Now there's something that will have fantastic resale value too.

    If all that wasn't bad enough - you've also got further contradictions/conflicts with your goals. You're aiming for massive peak power, but want to run individual throttle bodies. The fact is they _won't_ make peak power as well as a large plenum fed setup would. They are for circuit racing, where wider powerband, and fantastic torque (and throttle response) out of a corner absolutely shits on peak power.
    John McKenzie

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  6. #36
    Registered User TTerror's Avatar
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    fuck you must be bored...

  7. #37
    i want more power goracing's Avatar
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    why such a long reply for a guy that has no idea.....

    The mere fact he says he loves 2js so much but does not no the difference between a GTE and a GE sums it up....

  8. #38
    Registered User RB30-POWER's Avatar
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    someone put a link to that n.a 6 cyl z car in japan running 9/10sec quarters, must be making some power, can't recall how much now, will try to find the link later, but it's been posted here in the past, sounds tits...

  9. #39
    New Zealand bro Dave's Avatar
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    this arsehat used to be on aussiev8, he was a fucking tool over there and eventually got banned

    He is the roger cordia of holdens
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  10. #40
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    pretty sure he's banned on modified car forums too.

    dunno why though

  11. #41
    Nay sayer Mr Ed's Avatar
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    3L 2 stroke engine could make 450hp. Build one of those.
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  12. #42
    Registered User RB30-POWER's Avatar
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    found that thread i mentioned.

    http://www.performanceforums.com/for...highlight=240z

    just short of 400hp with carbies apparently.

  13. #43
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    Last edited by Rdyno; 13-01-14 at 08:16 PM.

  14. #44
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    Last edited by Rdyno; 13-01-14 at 08:16 PM.

  15. #45
    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    You thought of putting a V8 in a VR Commodore? Fuck what a fresh thinker you are!

    PS I'm starting a thread in offtopic that you might like to participate in.
    Retard Honour Wall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
    Rob Sloth Young did i ask for your opinion? no. i only want it for a paddock bomb. go play with traffic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fondles View Post
    you stupid fucken imbicle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fondles
    your are a fucken idiot of the highest level.

  16. #46
    dangerous fugitive
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    The 'leap' you aren't making with regard to the power potential is this - a hemi head flows reasonably well, maybe not as well per se as a modern 4 valve head, but what we are really saying is it feeds a 4.3+ litre motor pretty well. A 'highly developed' 4 valve head that was originally designed to feed a 2.5-3 litre motor - well 100% of 3 litres is 3 litres. 80% of 4.3 litres is 3.44 litres. So although the hemi head (theoretically) flows less efficiently per litre, if it 80% fills a 4.3 litre engine, it'll still have more air and fuel to burn and make power than a 100% volumetrically efficient 3 litre.

    Which is one small part (there's more to it, believe me) they have that old saying 'there is no replacement, for displacement'. If you can legally run it, and can feed it, then the bigger engine is typically the go (within sane limits of course).

    the logical extension of this is that whilst it's easy to make a particular goal from 4 litres than 3, then it's even easier from 5 litres or more. And when you start to look at some modern engines which are mostly alloy blocks (but still strong enough in spades) then you end up having that large capacity, in a lighter package (and in general a V engine of any description is physically smaller and lighter than if it had to be an inline engine) - so you win with that again.

    Make no mistake, I'm a big hemi fan, I've a big fondness for old holdens. For me it's practical because I've literally got stockpiles of hemi blocks and so forth that mean I will die of (very) old age before I've used them up, and I know what I can get out of them. But I wasted a shitload of money through my teens and twenties trying to 'prove a point' or whatever, and it's not like any of it was _really_ worth it (though I could write a 200000 page essay on every top bloke and every low life cunt involved in engine machining in the 1990s in melbourne!)

    Other's have asked why I bothered with the long response - I think if we were all honest, we were all a little bit like dynoryder at one stage. Nothing wrong with enthusiasm. About the only advice I'd REALLY suggest strongly - is (sorry if it sounds corny) - to actually TAKE the advice you get on this forum. It may be rough here at times, but I guarantee if you put together a collection of the talent of the blokes that post here, you'd not be able to match it anywhere. The advice doesn't always sound 'good' - but that's the true test of advice - it's not about telling you what you wanted to hear, or what you think is correct, it's telling you the honest truth about something, pleasant or otherwise.
    John McKenzie

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  17. #47
    dangerous fugitive
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    jesus christ I just read the pedders comment, I take it all back.

    find a way to remove the door of your microwave oven so that it still activates, and sit your nads in there on high for about 2-3 hours. Just to be on the safe side.
    John McKenzie

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    Religion flies people into buildings.

  18. #48
    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    I was never anything like sackryder John
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
    Rob Sloth Young did i ask for your opinion? no. i only want it for a paddock bomb. go play with traffic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fondles View Post
    you stupid fucken imbicle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fondles
    your are a fucken idiot of the highest level.

  19. #49
    egisteredU serR
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac View Post
    jesus christ I just read the pedders comment, I take it all back.

    find a way to remove the door of your microwave oven so that it still activates, and sit your nads in there on high for about 2-3 hours. Just to be on the safe side.
    Thats gotta go in the best quotes thread surely!!! fknlol

  20. #50
    i want more power goracing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynoryder View Post
    and i know many differnces between the ge and gte i was just wondering if it would be better to use a ge head for n/a
    The GE head is off a N/A

  21. #51
    Brian Fantana SkidFace's Avatar
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    Can't believe no one has mentioned the poolroom yet??
    Quote Originally Posted by Gussy View Post
    It's the PF way. "Put a twin turbo LS in it brah, you'll have it converted and running in 2.5 hours and make an eazy 1000rwkw, lulz" All while the same people who suggest this stuff drive around in a corolla and have a fucked VN sitting in the garage for the past 3 years as a "project car."

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