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Thread: Porsche 944 turbo road to racecar.

  1. #1051
    GTFO of my ED doctor ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonicevo View Post
    Oooo.... that's about 45mins away from me....
    Mit freundlichen Gre

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Duckworth View Post
    "I think that in a racing engine, the closer it is to disintegrating, in general the better its performance will be "

  2. #1052
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    After sleeping on this. It's cheap arse Americans.... We don't have much of a problem with freezing engines in Australia, but other countries do. I'll bet, that is the root cause of the cracks, a lack of anti freeze.

    It was one of those things the American 928 owners were anal about, and applies equally to the 944 but one wonders if the cheaper Porsche falls into the hands of less discerning owners who give no fucks....eventually the neglected car is bought by a Porsche engine workshop. Who remove the engine and wreck the rest. The engine kicks around under a bench till someone in Australia needs an engine built....because they didn't supply a donor engine.

    As for checking for such damage. from my time on the 928 forum I don't recall any block failures from freezing, so it wouldn't be something I'd be concerned about. Timing belt failures, yes, and torque tube clamp creep/engine thrust bearing failures, yes, corroded head gaskets, yes, but not cracked blocks from freezing.
    " I didn't have $$$$$, so I thought I'd build a car instead" : Ron Tauranac

  3. #1053
    Registered User PXL265's Avatar
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    But to me testing the block would be standard practice.

    I know it's not in the same league, but my old shitty L series blocks I used were always checked for cracking before being built and sonic tested to see how big we could go if they were going to be bored out.

    I hope you can get something back out if the engine builder for not checking what a lot of people would consider basic prep.

    Really feel for you with the time and dollars you have invested in this car, and hope you can come back to have another crack in the future.

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  4. #1054
    Chairbourn ranger! Mike Lowrrryyy's Avatar
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    That's just fucked. Gutted for you Pat.
    Quote Originally Posted by S View Post
    I just want to apologise for some of my shit talking back around page 5.

  5. #1055
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    this thread makes me believe in curses! feel for you mate!

  6. #1056
    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy928tt View Post
    After sleeping on this. It's cheap arse Americans.... We don't have much of a problem with freezing engines in Australia, but other countries do. I'll bet, that is the root cause of the cracks, a lack of anti freeze.

    It was one of those things the American 928 owners were anal about, and applies equally to the 944 but one wonders if the cheaper Porsche falls into the hands of less discerning owners who give no fucks....eventually the neglected car is bought by a Porsche engine workshop. Who remove the engine and wreck the rest. The engine kicks around under a bench till someone in Australia needs an engine built....because they didn't supply a donor engine.

    As for checking for such damage. from my time on the 928 forum I don't recall any block failures from freezing, so it wouldn't be something I'd be concerned about. Timing belt failures, yes, and torque tube clamp creep/engine thrust bearing failures, yes, corroded head gaskets, yes, but not cracked blocks from freezing.
    Nothing to do with over ~3x the standard power output? Even though the boost was only 16psi or whatever, boost is only a measure of restriction. 600hp is still 600hp worth of load on the motor.

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  7. #1057
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    This sort of shit drove me away from racing after spending many tens of thousands so I feel for you. In the end we broke it all up and parted it out and got a small percentage of what we had spent back. You never go into motor sport expecting anything but a money pit but stupid stuff like this is over and beyond the normal expectation.

  8. #1058
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    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    Nothing to do with over ~3x the standard power output? Even though the boost was only 16psi or whatever, boost is only a measure of restriction. 600hp is still 600hp worth of load on the motor.

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    From what I see of the 928 engine, I wouldn't consider that the slightest issue at all.

    A 3.2 litre 4 valve per cylinder engine will produce 600hp ( I mean if you had a 3.2 litre RB or JZ you would want that sort of output) relatively easily and the Porsche bottom end is more than capable of withstanding the forces involved. We are seeing with the 928 engine 1000 rwhp on essentialy stock 5 litre engines...
    " I didn't have $$$$$, so I thought I'd build a car instead" : Ron Tauranac

  9. #1059
    Registered User 333pg333's Avatar
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    That's the problem with using old Alu blocks. You have no idea of the history. I started the build with this motor 10 years ago but it got shoved to the back burner as I dealt with other motors. I had invested a fair bit of cabbage on this block and head even back then. So at the end of 2015 I decided to finish it. It got out of hand and the builder tried to design in as much preventative engineering into it so that we'd have decent longevity. (Inject Irony here) The builder did apparently have it crack tested and water pressure tested but as the brief wasn't to deliver a fully built, tested & run in motor, then it wasn't put under pressure oil wise. So in reality how can a builder ever be held accountable if they don't actually sell you a fully built (inc intake, exhaust, ECU) tested on dyno, motor? I don't know when he crack tested it. I have invoices showing this from back in 2007. I believe he had it tested for water pressure more recently. Add that it was bored slightly. 104 - 105mm, it has had large headstuds installed and a Timesert type thing installed inside there. Deckplated too. However he said that the process of press fitting the deckplate doesn't require much force. Add to that the motor is on solid engine mounts. Why did the crack in the other side of the motor suddenly happen and we had hardly even done 1 lap and it wasn't at full noise. Maybe this thing was just going to continue to crack all over. Still, you'd have thought that it would have shown up somewhere in the 10 years it took to be finished and delivered.

    Massive shame for a number of reasons. Apart from cubic dollars on my part and never driving the thing, it just started to show some promise as far as an efficient motor goes. 500whp @ 10psi is strong in anyone's book. Pretty much all the competitors at WTAC run 25psi+ 'gate springs and use 35psi as their boost base. Just would have been fun to see what it could do. Not sure about a .28 but I reckon there was a .29 in it. Will probably never know.
    Last edited by 333pg333; 13-10-17 at 06:41 PM.

  10. #1060
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    Commiserations old son

    Grab some scotch

    Smash it down

    Throw the feet up and yell KUNT lousy

    Least she didn't burn down to the cage

    Everything can be fixed
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  11. #1061
    Registered User 333pg333's Avatar
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    Thanks all for the kind words of support.

    I'm working with the builder and people here to see what we can come up with. At this stage we can't lay blame at anything without having a closer look.
    Possibly treating a 25+ year old block to Nikasil treatment may have affected the metallurgy of the block? This is the first one that he has done like this.

    Back to the Scotch...

  12. #1062
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    Very sorry to hear mate. Hope to see things come back to life in the future after some reflection has been made and you feel more comfortable to get back into it.

    On a side note, you could always get one of these, Insane $$$

  13. #1063
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    LOL yeah they made use of the wide bore spacing, they are very close to Chev Big Block bore spacing, you can swap Porsche 928 heads onto a Chev big block....

    Strangely, it would seem as if it is quite less stressed than an equivalent 4G63, each cylinder is making similar power but the cylinders in the "Porsche" are larger, therefore bigger valves so likely lower boost pressures....

    I think there is probably some wisdom in limiting revs to 8500, there has to be some weight of piston and rod swinging around in there, 8 litre V8 at 8500 rpm, anybody? I'm also guessing they have deleted the balance shaft that Porsche fitted to these engines!
    " I didn't have $$$$$, so I thought I'd build a car instead" : Ron Tauranac

  14. #1064
    Registered User 333pg333's Avatar
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    Working with the builder now. Of course nobody wants to repeat the problem. May have been something to do with the block itself (ie no idea of history-overheating etc). May also have been to do with serts put in place prior to the very large headstuds. The crack in the block was a lot larger than we thought, or could see, with it installed. Once out, it became apparent just how big this crack was. Problem is now he has tested a number of blocks and they all flex quite a lot under certain loads. Therefore, were we unlucky (well d'uh...middle name etc) and could we get away with just going again on another block and enjoy success that some others have had at similar power levels? Or think about billet? How much would a simple billet block be...more than I have at the moment.

    So at this stage I'm doing absolutely nothing and trying not to think about the car at all. It's sitting in a dark corner with the Aero removed as I sold that just to make it to WTAC among other parts. Sad state of affairs really. $$$ spent per lap is impossible to calculate. There's no number large enough to write down for such fucked up lunacy!

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    Last edited by 333pg333; 11-11-17 at 07:08 PM.

  15. #1065
    Smoke em if you got em! LINCOLN's Avatar
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    Sadface. My condolences

  16. #1066
    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    Can I make a serious suggestion that you fit another brand of 4 cylinder motor or an alloy V8
    xw Falcon 393 full race cam, NGK spark plugs.

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  17. #1067
    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    Off the shelf billet SR (built in australia!) or just throw the old motor back in and enjoy it.

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  18. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuk1ear View Post
    Very sorry to hear mate. Hope to see things come back to life in the future after some reflection has been made and you feel more comfortable to get back into it.

    On a side note, you could always get one of these, Insane $$$
    100k engine SCA engine stand.

  19. #1069
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    SCA engine stand = fit for purpose It holds the engine as well as any.

    Geez Pat, surely there is nothing else to do but step back and take a sanity break....
    " I didn't have $$$$$, so I thought I'd build a car instead" : Ron Tauranac

  20. #1070
    Brown Cunt MR-PUNANNY's Avatar
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    That sux man! To be honest, your thread and also my friends GTR (Steve Ka) has made me realised that its not worth going all out for just laptimes, so ive taken a notch back on my build and just doing what i can financially to get it on the track and enjoy it.
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  21. #1071
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR-PUNANNY View Post
    That sux man! To be honest, your thread and also my friends GTR (Steve Ka) has made me realised that its not worth going all out for just laptimes, so ive taken a notch back on my build and just doing what i can financially to get it on the track and enjoy it.
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  22. #1072
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    Mate, that totally sucks. I know it's probably not your cup of tea, but an LSx conversion is really easy, and cheap!

    I've got one of Texas Performances kits, and they are pretty high quality, and cheap!

    Plenty of room in there as well; just food for thought.

    I'd post pics of my WIP, but can't on mobile

  23. #1073
    Naughtius Maximus JayTHEFordman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtaC View Post
    I know it's probably not your cup of tea, but an LSx conversion is really easy, and cheap!

    I've got one of Texas Performances kits, and they are pretty high quality, and cheap!

    Plenty of room in there as well; just food for thought.
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  24. #1074
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    LSX, dry sump and go trackday the shit out of it.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  25. #1075
    Registered User Forg Convertible's Avatar
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    Been following this thread, and my ex snap on rep is a good friend of yours. Sorry the block shit the bed like that for you. Nasty after all the work that went into it.

    Been reading a few race car threads where exotic/4cyl turbo engines have proven unreliable, and the result is to switch to an lsx motor.

    I wonder how an ls motor would go in this? It's heavier? No need for torque in such a light car? Would it be enough naturally aspirated, or how about the crate blown motor?

    Or build up another 944 block locally. There's plenty of good engine builders locally, like my mates in Dee Why West/Cromer.

  26. #1076
    Registered User 333pg333's Avatar
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    Not sure why but I checked into this thread for the first time in a while. Surprised to see any new posts. Thanks for the thoughts guys. But I'm bu$ted.
    Car has been hauled off to some shed somewhere. I don't even know where. Aero has been pulled off as I'd pre sold that just to make last year's event. Still paying off too many bills / loans etc.
    Sob story really but who gives a fuck. I seriously can't even speak to anyone about this car and it's demise. Clearly I have issues. If it disappeared off the face of the earth I couldn't care. What's a few hundred thou afterall.
    That the much vaunted 16v engine broke in half and set the car on fire on lap one of practice day just kicked my nuts to Mars. Top day out!

    The V8 thing is something I just fought against in my tiny mind for a long time. It does make sense even though I kinda hate it but more power to anyone that does it. Much smarter than me that's for sure.

    However...above and beyond all that, I'm very fortunate to have a reasonably healthy existence, great partner, steady (low paying) job and Sunny Dayz....so a couple of uppercuts later and I shake it off. Just can't talk about though...

  27. #1077
    Registered User dougmo's Avatar
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    i know you pain pat, i ended up parting mine out to pay the bills after chasing the dream and blowing another engine (and two turbos)
    at my last event..

    it does get better

  28. #1078
    Registered User 333pg333's Avatar
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    Thanks George. Appreciate it.

  29. #1079
    Registered User I'm DJ!'s Avatar
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    Yeah this has been the hardest journey ever to follow Pat. Having had one of these and knowing what you were trying to achieve I was so looking forward to it being all that you expected. Such a shit turn.

    But on the bright side the chassis is well sorted, it just needs a power plant, get you out there turning laps.

    Do you still have the sohc engine lying around?

    If so, maybe a pf weekend on the tools to get her back driveable then go have some fun?
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  30. #1080
    Registered User 333pg333's Avatar
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    Again, thanks for the kind thoughts. Other motor was sent back to the US. The block, head and crank belonged to that shop. It was sort of on loan to me. I paid for pistons and rods plus too much other $$ on that 2.5 8v motor anyway. It was a waste of more time/money in the end. Supposedly the builder is making me another block for the 16v motor but I hardly care anymore. Perhaps I'll get 'the vibe' again sometime in the future. At the moment, couldn't even afford to put a tank of E85 in it. See what happens in the next few years. Would be a shame to let it slide altogether.

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