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Thread: New AC/DC TIG option - cheaper CIG FYI

  1. #121
    Registered User bang chong's Avatar
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    New AC/DC TIG option - cheaper CIG FYI

    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Attachment 104516

    First attempt at stainless. Prep was hopeless, fuck I need a linishal. About a 2-3mm gap to fill in outside, inside corners flush.

    Much more practice needed and a stool/some blocks etc yo get wrist coordinated and resting.
    Pedal would help with gaps, especially with a manual pulse.
    Last edited by bang chong; 30-01-18 at 04:09 PM.

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    We are getting there boys....

    Cranked it up to 110 amps, and cleaned the helmet lens as best I could:

    Lap joint with no filler rod:


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    And the reverse side, this time with filler rod. 3mm MS flat bar, with a 1.6mm filler rod, 1.6mm tungsten, and 110 amps:


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    And a butt weld (bottom weld in this pic), still 110 amps, with a dog leg. Still having trouble seeing where I'm going in terms of keeping the bead straight.




    Reverse side, looks like the penetration is all the way though, except where the dog leg wandered off course.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    And a butt weld (bottom weld in this pic), still 110 amps, with a dog leg. Still having trouble seeing where I'm going in terms of keeping the bead straight.




    Reverse side, looks like the penetration is all the way though, except where the dog leg wandered off course.

    that looks heaps better! it's a baby goalpost but you are now better than me

    the cratering isn't great but you will work out how to fix that easily with some downslope fiddling.

    Quote Originally Posted by bang chong View Post
    Mr Tig is a pretty ordinary welder. Read his comments on one of his videos on how to weld thin stainless.


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    I saw one of his videos and wondered "why does this cunt call himself Mr. TIG?" While TIG is good for everything I think most people associate it with thin sheet, specifically aluminium and stainless tube and stacked dimes, if you can't do that awesomely then don't call yourself Mr. TIG unless your surname is Tig.

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    Cheers RS!

    Yeah, whatís with the cratering, what am I doing wrong to cause that?

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    Very nice sprinkles. Where the bead flattens out in the middle just means its overheated. So speed up or back the amps off.

    Tig is definitely not limited to just thin stuff.

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    Hey guys Iím thinking of getting a cheap DC stick welder to use for scratch start tig to do some stainless welding whatís recommended?

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    The good thing about these modern TIGs is that they do both TIG and stick. Iím working towards stainless welding, one of my medium term welding goals is making some SS brewing vessels. My Razor was about $1400 with some consumables, does stick and TIG.

  10. #130
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    New AC/DC TIG option - cheaper CIG FYI

    Quote Originally Posted by S View Post
    Hey guys Iím thinking of getting a cheap DC stick welder to use for scratch start tig to do some stainless welding whatís recommended?
    If youíre learning I suggest buying a welder with high frequency start opposed to a scratch start. Much easier to learn on.

    My friend bought a Rossi one for about $250 brand new. I suggested this since he doesnít have to outlay a bunch of money on a machine that he might get over after a few uses. Tig welding takes hours and hours of practice to be able to know what your weld is going to turn out like everytime, consistently. Took me about 3yrs of welding everyday
    Last edited by bang chong; 30-01-18 at 08:41 PM.

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    I will eventually buy a decent TIG and try aluminium but I canít afford to yet. So cheap TIG first for doing stainless and mild steel exhaust work then a decent MIG then the good TIG.

    That was @ sprinkles.
    Last edited by S; 30-01-18 at 09:04 PM.

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    I used the stick lead that came with my razor to upgrade the earth lead on my unimig 180 lol.

    I'll probably buy a caddy stick welder just for field work, heaps of them have hf start for tig as well. The razor would do the same job but $300 is nicer to throw around the ute than $1300.

    MIG will always get you glueing metal together quicker than tig or stick. Depends on your previous experience.

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    Last edited by da9jeff; 30-01-18 at 08:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bang chong View Post
    If youíre learning I suggest buying a welder with high frequency start opposed to a scratch start. Much easier to learn on.

    My friend bought a Rossi one for about $250 brand new. I suggested this since he doesnít have to outlay a bunch of money on a machine that he might get over after a few uses. Tig welding takes hours and hours of practice to be able to know what your weld is going to turn out like everytime, consistently. Took me about 3yrs of welding everyday
    I just was thinking it would be cheaper that way so I can weld both mild and SS exhausts not turbo headders and fancy shit but repairs and welding brackets on or adding an aftermarket cat ect. Iím good with MIG and okay with stick atm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S View Post
    I just was thinking it would be cheaper that way so I can weld both mild and SS exhausts not turbo headders and fancy shit but repairs and welding brackets on or adding an aftermarket cat ect. Iím good with MIG and okay with stick atm.
    If you just want to do exhausts and don't want to outlay for a TIG, I would think a MIG would be the go. Welding exhausts with a stick welder would be a battle as the material is so thin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    Very nice sprinkles. Where the bead flattens out in the middle just means its overheated. So speed up or back the amps off.

    Tig is definitely not limited to just thin stuff.

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    Thanks Jeff! I'll work on the speed control next, and try to get the bead even the whole way along

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    If you just want to do exhausts and don't want to outlay for a TIG, I would think a MIG would be the go. Welding exhausts with a stick welder would be a battle as the material is so thin.
    No I asking about using a DC stick welder to power a tig torch that you clamp to the stick leads itís refered to as scratch start because you have to tap the electrode to start an arc.

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    Just get hf start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    Just get hf start.

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    Yea but would that be more expensive?

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    Yes but surely worth it. Most caddy welders will do lift start tig which will be better than scratch.

    But really just get a 200a mig. For general workshop stuff it would be ideal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    Cheers RS!

    Yeah, whatís with the cratering, what am I doing wrong to cause that?
    could be something else in your case but when I was getting it I blamed it on the machine not having any (current) downslope, so the pool would cool too fast and make a crater for whatever reason. I got around it by making fairly quick circles around the puddle before letting go of the button which cooled it down slower.

    Assuming your downslope is set right maybe make sure you are holding the torch still until well after the current and post flow gas stops.

    Miller says:

    Causes (of cratering) include instantly reducing the welding power (which causes the puddle to cool too quickly) and removing the filler rod too quickly at the end of the weld. You can easily fix crater cracking issues by continuing to feed filler rod while slowly reducing current at the end of a weld.

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    Scratch starting tig on an arc welder? A permanently live tig torch, meh. The world has moved on, and despite it working perfectly fine (excepting no pre shielding flow or post flow or crater control or amp control) it'd just be a great way to continually destroy tungstens resting the torch on something conductive nearby.

    One benefit I see is avoiding HF start and frying modern circuits that don't have inductive voltage suppressor/protection circuits. Which all do.

    Mig works fine for all underbody shit. And a cheap dedicated DC scratch start tig is like $250, and you can weld stainless just fine.
    Last edited by cracka; 30-01-18 at 11:26 PM.
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    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    Yes but surely worth it. Most caddy welders will do lift start tig which will be better than scratch.

    But really just get a 200a mig. For general workshop stuff it would be ideal.

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    Lift tig is scratch tig.

    Hf is switch


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  23. #143
    Registered User bang chong's Avatar
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    New AC/DC TIG option - cheaper CIG FYI

    Like I said for $250, you ainít going to get much cheaper. A new stick welder is around $150-250 anyway.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    Cheers RS!

    Yeah, whatís with the cratering, what am I doing wrong to cause that?
    If youíre talking about cratering at the end of the weld, just add an extra dab of filler before you release the switch. Itís to do with quickly turning off the arc instead of slightly tapering off. As mentioned can adjust in your setting but I personally donít like downslope as it catches me out on thinner stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    And a butt weld (bottom weld in this pic), still 110 amps, with a dog leg. Still having trouble seeing where I'm going in terms of keeping the bead straight.




    Reverse side, looks like the penetration is all the way though, except where the dog leg wandered off course.



    Alright-this is getting somewhere. Write this setting down somewhere and keep it handy for 3mm sheet-it's a little hot but definitely good enough to keep.

    You start out great there on the rightmost third of your weld, dogleg and all, and as you move into the middle third of the weld you start getting too hot-either move faster here, or back the heat off a bit. That's where it flattens out and the circles start looking like V's. Even your little dogleg there is 100% penetration, so no worries about that!

    You can see as you approach the the punched hole you really gotta move fast or back the heat off to keep from burning into the edge of the hole-there's less mass there so you get too hot on one side-this can actually pull a dogleg in your puddle sometimes, too, although it didn't seem to here. Just melted in, which takes a lot of practice to avoid when you're that close in.

    And that last third, right at and to the left of the punched hole, you're too hot there-you picked up a lot of heat welding next to that hole and since you're near the edge of the material and end of the weld, there's no cold metal to sink that heat into. Now, too hot doesn't just mean too many amps, it also means your base metal has heated up and requires fewer amps input to maintain welding temperature. This is where a pedal or thumbwheel is good if you're bench welding or a 4T clicker setup if you're way out in nowhere.

    But, all in all, you've got the idea down. I just checked my welder out in the shop, my amps display's middle digit is missing a segment-9's now look like 4's, and 5's have no top! Sorry for the bad advice re welding currents, that didn't help much.

    How are you doing on tungsten? I went through a LOT learning, the first year I was grinding points as much as I was welding. That was the big push for me to get off thoriated, the lung cancer risk is high enough with welding to not want to add to it.

    RE Cratering:

    At the end of your weld, you have a LOT of heat and nowhere for it to run to-so you have to back the heat off slowly. Work on tapering back with the pedal or thumbwheel from full puddle, to no puddle, and back to full puddle again, in the middle of a plate. Don't move the torch or add rod, just get that feel for smooth control of the puddle size, like an iris on a camera opening and closing. This also will help you maintain puddle size when you start getting hot-instead of the weld bead getting wide and flat, you'll be able to maintain a constant width and consistent penetration.

    As said above, cratering is a heat control problem. As the weld puddle cools, it shrinks, and draws liquid metal away from the puddle. This leaves a crater where the puddle was, as the metal shrinks away. To combat this, you keep adding filler and keep it liquid, slowly tapering the heat back and slowly shrinking the diameter of your weld puddle. You can even keep the arc going and have no weld puddle at all to maintain temperature for a second, slowing the cooling process even more.

    Crater cracking is a result of not having enough liquid metal left and the solid metal around the puddle cooling too fast-it's a star or line shaped crack originating from the crater, and can go all the way through your weld. The solution is heat control, and not leaving a crater-some metals and fillers are very bad about this!

    Another defect that is very common at the end of a mild steel weld is the "bubble" or blowhole. This is nearly always crap in the weld-either off your filler rod, which is dirty or oxidized, or the tungsten, OR very common but not commonly thought of, the backside of your weld pool! Think about it-your weld pool is going to be unprotected and oxidizing on the back side of the weld in mild steel and if you dip the rod in and touch the film of solid metal on the bottom of the weld pool, you'll draw that oxide back up through the puddle. The other big cause of the "bubble" is hydrogen entrapment, and it happens in all metals. Again-caused by crap in the weld or in the alloy you're welding, oils, dirt, anything with hydrogen in it. The hydrogen dissolves very nicely in liquid metal, but as the metal solidifies, it's ability to hold hydrogen dissolved into it diminishes and the gas is forced out of solution-causing bubbles. You might have heard of "hydrogen porosity" in welds before-this is the phenomena that causes that. Clean metal, clean work area, clean welding rod, and a clean technique all contribute to fewer problems with porosity and bubble defects in your work.

    All in all-your welds are looking 100% better already. Keep working at it, and you'll be turning out consistent quality faster than you think!
    Last edited by Xnke; 31-01-18 at 04:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bang chong View Post
    Lift tig is scratch tig.

    Hf is switch


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    I thought scratch was the same as striking an arc with a stick and lift tig was where the machine senses closed circuit and as you lift off it ramps up and starts the arc?

    Both methods you snap the arc at the end and you get pre or post gas with a valve on the hand piece instead of timers.

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  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    I thought scratch was the same as striking an arc with a stick and lift tig was where the machine senses closed circuit and as you lift off it ramps up and starts the arc?

    Both methods you snap the arc at the end and you get pre or post gas with a valve on the hand piece instead of timers.

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    Ahh you are correct. I always thought they were the same since itís so similar that it could be interpreted that way. Most of the newer stuff now is lift then and Iím assuming the older stuff or stick converted rigs are scratch.

    Anyway h/f is still much better in my opinion for newbies and can save you gas and time from sharpening tungstens 24/7 haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    Alright-this is getting somewhere. Write this setting down somewhere and keep it handy for 3mm sheet-it's a little hot but definitely good enough to keep.

    You start out great there on the rightmost third of your weld, dogleg and all, and as you move into the middle third of the weld you start getting too hot-either move faster here, or back the heat off a bit. That's where it flattens out and the circles start looking like V's. Even your little dogleg there is 100% penetration, so no worries about that!

    You can see as you approach the the punched hole you really gotta move fast or back the heat off to keep from burning into the edge of the hole-there's less mass there so you get too hot on one side-this can actually pull a dogleg in your puddle sometimes, too, although it didn't seem to here. Just melted in, which takes a lot of practice to avoid when you're that close in.

    And that last third, right at and to the left of the punched hole, you're too hot there-you picked up a lot of heat welding next to that hole and since you're near the edge of the material and end of the weld, there's no cold metal to sink that heat into. Now, too hot doesn't just mean too many amps, it also means your base metal has heated up and requires fewer amps input to maintain welding temperature. This is where a pedal or thumbwheel is good if you're bench welding or a 4T clicker setup if you're way out in nowhere.

    But, all in all, you've got the idea down. I just checked my welder out in the shop, my amps display's middle digit is missing a segment-9's now look like 4's, and 5's have no top! Sorry for the bad advice re welding currents, that didn't help much.

    How are you doing on tungsten? I went through a LOT learning, the first year I was grinding points as much as I was welding. That was the big push for me to get off thoriated, the lung cancer risk is high enough with welding to not want to add to it.

    RE Cratering:

    At the end of your weld, you have a LOT of heat and nowhere for it to run to-so you have to back the heat off slowly. Work on tapering back with the pedal or thumbwheel from full puddle, to no puddle, and back to full puddle again, in the middle of a plate. Don't move the torch or add rod, just get that feel for smooth control of the puddle size, like an iris on a camera opening and closing. This also will help you maintain puddle size when you start getting hot-instead of the weld bead getting wide and flat, you'll be able to maintain a constant width and consistent penetration.

    As said above, cratering is a heat control problem. As the weld puddle cools, it shrinks, and draws liquid metal away from the puddle. This leaves a crater where the puddle was, as the metal shrinks away. To combat this, you keep adding filler and keep it liquid, slowly tapering the heat back and slowly shrinking the diameter of your weld puddle. You can even keep the arc going and have no weld puddle at all to maintain temperature for a second, slowing the cooling process even more.

    Crater cracking is a result of not having enough liquid metal left and the solid metal around the puddle cooling too fast-it's a star or line shaped crack originating from the crater, and can go all the way through your weld. The solution is heat control, and not leaving a crater-some metals and fillers are very bad about this!

    Another defect that is very common at the end of a mild steel weld is the "bubble" or blowhole. This is nearly always crap in the weld-either off your filler rod, which is dirty or oxidized, or the tungsten, OR very common but not commonly thought of, the backside of your weld pool! Think about it-your weld pool is going to be unprotected and oxidizing on the back side of the weld in mild steel and if you dip the rod in and touch the film of solid metal on the bottom of the weld pool, you'll draw that oxide back up through the puddle. The other big cause of the "bubble" is hydrogen entrapment, and it happens in all metals. Again-caused by crap in the weld or in the alloy you're welding, oils, dirt, anything with hydrogen in it. The hydrogen dissolves very nicely in liquid metal, but as the metal solidifies, it's ability to hold hydrogen dissolved into it diminishes and the gas is forced out of solution-causing bubbles. You might have heard of "hydrogen porosity" in welds before-this is the phenomena that causes that. Clean metal, clean work area, clean welding rod, and a clean technique all contribute to fewer problems with porosity and bubble defects in your work.

    All in all-your welds are looking 100% better already. Keep working at it, and you'll be turning out consistent quality faster than you think!
    Thanks for the feedback Xnke. It looks like it's time to bust out the foot pedal, so I can ease up on the amperage to control the cratering at the end of the bead and in those other areas where it's getting too hot.

  29. #149
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    Sorry gonna bump this again.

    Looking to actually pull the trigger on a budget TIG.

    Cigweld
    https://adelaidetools.com.au/cigweld...xoCXAoQAvD_BwE

    Lincoln
    https://www.totaltools.com.au/105749...welder-k690292

    Everlast
    https://eastcoastweldingsupplies.com...werTIG%20185DV

    I know the first 2 are Chinese, and I assume the Everlast probably is too. Doesn't seem to be a lot of reviews out there as the Lincoln appears to be an Australian market only thing, and the Everlast is pretty new. Doubtful anyone has used all three but from the specs, is there an obvious choice? I'm thinking about the Everlast as the saving can go towards a nice helmet and gas.
    Uses would be light fab work such as attempting to make alloy surge tanks, intercooler piping etc.

  30. #150
    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    Unimig Razor!!! Avoid the cigweld.

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