Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 158

Thread: Electric turbo?

  1. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cuntberra
    Posts
    6,096
    Those nano tech batteries seem decent I want some for my aquacraft.

  2. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cuntberra
    Posts
    6,096
    I just did some rough maths.

    A two litre engine running at 5000rpm at 100% ve will suck 10000lpm which is 350cfm to get 6psi you will need to add 175cfm in perfect conditions that is a farrk load of power.

    Edit in saying this the 6psi would only need near half the power output of the engine assuming the 2l makes 100kw add all the variables like scavenge I predict a motor anywhere from 10kw to 30kw would be required to make 6psi depending on the engine. So say 15kw you would need near 375amp if the motor was 40v to get that voltage you would lose massive efficiency. This project is doomed from day one.
    Last edited by Rdyno; 23-05-13 at 11:51 PM.

  3. #33
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by dynoryder View Post
    The driven side would be the stator which would weigh considerably more.
    These motors will spin up fast, and will do so without the need for exhaust gas which is not there at low RPM as on a normal turbo installation. There will be times where a normal turbo will spin up faster. IE it you planted it at 5000rpm. But there will be times where the electric version will spin up faster, IE at 2000pm. Since it relies on electric power it will be up to the user to program when it comes on. You could easily just have it on a "drag mode" where runs full tilt the whole time and there will no no lag at all (you would have to deal with compressor surge though)

    I have never even said this will be really awesome and will be way better than a regular turbo. The idea is just to see if its feasible and if so might make an interesting project.
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  4. #34
    This space left blank Ben Wilson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Canberra
    Posts
    3,571
    Quote Originally Posted by to4garret View Post
    Don't worry about a speed controller, just use a big relay and make sure it's all fused properly.
    Bit tricky with a 3 phase brushless motor; without a speed controller it's a paperweight...
    Imagination is more important than knowledge.

  5. #35
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Thats one huge motor. No RPMs are listed I read somewhere that the 200mph hotliners spin the props over 30,000 rpm. So I wonder what motors they use?

    That battery can supply 2.9kw continuously or 5.8kw burst and is 44V. It has a pissweak capacity of 5ah so you would want at least 2. Which would last about 5min at 5.8kw. That would tax the fuck out of the battery and it would be dead pretty quick.

    Quote Originally Posted by to4garret View Post
    One of these would do it.

    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_motor.html

    Not sure how many of these would be needed,

    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...Lipo_Pack.html

    Don't worry about a speed controller, just use a big relay and make sure it's all fused properly.
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  6. #36
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Wilson View Post
    Bit tricky with a 3 phase brushless motor; without a speed controller it's a paperweight...
    Thats what I thought.
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  7. #37
    Boob dude to4garret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    741
    Whoops, it's list the RPMs as 150kv on that motor.

  8. #38
    Meh
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    26,940
    Another way I thought of doing it was the gear-up an output from the engine's own crankshaft. Something like 1:10 to get the turbo spinning-up at low revs.

    But after a lot of thought about that system and electric motors, I decided that it'd just easier to make the engine larger and get a better & better matched turbo, and drive the engine to suit.

  9. #39
    Opposed to the PFAD Bill
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    9,402
    You would get a more useful gain by attaching the electric motor to the crankshaft, not the turbo

  10. #40
    Meh
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    26,940
    Quote Originally Posted by myliberty View Post
    You would get a more useful gain by attaching the electric motor to the crankshaft, not the turbo
    Yep, that's a better idea.

  11. #41
    Registered Fatman Dark Orange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Yeppoon
    Posts
    4,069
    I think the problem with electric turbos is not so much finding a suitable one, it is whether the whole concept is practical.

    Electricity is not free. It either needs to be introduced into the system as a bank of batteries that add extra weight and need to be charged up, or it comes from the engine. (remember that the alternator and motor are each only 80-90% efficient) A 10KW electric motor may only be doing 9Kw of work, and sapping 12KW from your motor.)

    In my mind, you are better off directly replacing the alternator with a mechanical fan/compressor which will give you better efficiency by doing away, or maybe work out some way to use the energy otherwise wasted in the exhaust gas to drive a compressor, possibly via a turbine.
    Is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

  12. #42
    Registered User E-Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    sunshine coast
    Posts
    3,777
    Tl;dr
    What if it was only on for the brief period of lag on a larger turbo engine, to eliminate lag? Less airflow because lower revs, then disengage when the turbo is on boost. Would also bring the actual turbo on boost quicker too
    caprice nugget.

  13. #43
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by myliberty View Post
    You would get a more useful gain by attaching the electric motor to the crankshaft, not the turbo
    I don't think that is right. This is not an issue stemming from a flawed view of the laws of thermodynamics. The engine will gain far more power from the compressed air compared to the energy required to compress it. That's because it is a combustion engine, not a compressed air engine.

    Lets compare to a mechanical supercharger. This device saps crank HP in order to compress air. Overall the engine gains a lot of power. If you switch to a electric setup, it will be a similar concept but with a few differences. The overall efficiency will be less due to more conversion losses. However, it is only used when required so it makes up for losses there (yeah I know you could used a clutch on a regular SC though). Plus most of the power used to drive the system comes from the past rather than the present which means more power per PSI of boost.

    However I have considered bolting an electric drive to the rear wheels of a FWD car, for AWD fun and increased performance. The cost involved would be huge though for motors worth installing, say 100hp.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 24-05-13 at 09:43 AM.
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  14. #44
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by E-Z View Post
    Tl;dr
    What if it was only on for the brief period of lag on a larger turbo engine, to eliminate lag? Less airflow because lower revs, then disengage when the turbo is on boost. Would also bring the actual turbo on boost quicker too
    This is the best idea yet and it has been done! http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor...925-26i7z.html

    You could eliminate the alternator too and use it generate power.
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  15. #45
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Billzilla View Post
    Another way I thought of doing it was the gear-up an output from the engine's own crankshaft. Something like 1:10 to get the turbo spinning-up at low revs.

    But after a lot of thought about that system and electric motors, I decided that it'd just easier to make the engine larger and get a better & better matched turbo, and drive the engine to suit.
    Yeah my idea was not to create the ultimate performance. Just a different project to add power to an NA car. Seems the eletrical system will be too expensive to be practical. If I can find a set up for under $1000 I might give it a go and put it on my 1MZ. Or use it on the Caldina to eliminate lag (fucking auto tragic is slower than a techno moo from the lights)
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  16. #46
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Orange View Post
    I think the problem with electric turbos is not so much finding a suitable one, it is whether the whole concept is practical.

    Electricity is not free. It either needs to be introduced into the system as a bank of batteries that add extra weight and need to be charged up, or it comes from the engine. (remember that the alternator and motor are each only 80-90% efficient) A 10KW electric motor may only be doing 9Kw of work, and sapping 12KW from your motor.)

    In my mind, you are better off directly replacing the alternator with a mechanical fan/compressor which will give you better efficiency by doing away, or maybe work out some way to use the energy otherwise wasted in the exhaust gas to drive a compressor, possibly via a turbine.
    Most of these issues have already been addressed in this thread. This system would only be good for light duty cycles as would be expected with street driving.

    I believe these issues will not be surmountable on a street (or drag) car where 95% if the time the system will be charging.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 24-05-13 at 09:38 AM.
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  17. #47
    Meh
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    26,940
    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    I don't think that is right. This is not an issue stemming from a flawed view of the laws of thermodynamics. The engine will gain far more power from the compressed air compared to the energy required to compress it. That's because it is a combustion engine, not a compressed air engine.
    I'm not convinced about that because of the very different efficiencies of the petrol engine and electric motor. The petrol one is maybe 30% efficient and the electric a bit over 90%.
    If you're going to use a large model aeroplane electric motor you could gear it down so max revs would be something like 4,000 rpm or so, or about 1/3 it's normal maximum. That'd give it a fair bit of immediate torque in the lower revs, where you want it.
    If you use the electric motor on the turbo for sure it'll help but there's the difficulty in physically connecting the two. And then disconnecting them when the electric motor isn't needed. And somehow keeping the airflow into the turbo clean through an air filter as well.
    I guess the easiest way to give the engine a blast of air in the lower revs is a dose of nitrous ... ?



    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Yeah my idea was not to create the ultimate performance. Just a different project to add power to an NA car. Seems the eletrical system will be too expensive to be practical. If I can find a set up for under $1000 I might give it a go and put it on my 1MZ. Or use it on the Caldina to eliminate lag (fucking auto tragic is slower than a techno moo from the lights)
    Forklift DC electric motor is about $100 second-hand. Get some batteries and a crude controller and you might squeeze in under a grand.

  18. #48
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Billzilla View Post
    I'm not convinced about that because of the very different efficiencies of the petrol engine and electric motor. The petrol one is maybe 30% efficient and the electric a bit over 90%.
    If you're going to use a large model aeroplane electric motor you could gear it down so max revs would be something like 4,000 rpm or so, or about 1/3 it's normal maximum. That'd give it a fair bit of immediate torque in the lower revs, where you want it.
    I edited my last reply to Az to include my reason to why this is not correct. Quite simply, if it were correct, a mechanical supercharger would not work. Including conversion losses, an electric system would probably only be 35% less efficient than a mechanical drive, but the power to drive it comes from the past, not the present (in a street car) so it would produce more power than a mechanical unit.

    A DC forklift motor may work with the RPMs required to spin a small supercharger. A turbo is problematic due to the high RPM involved.

    Who has a SC14 laying around?
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 24-05-13 at 09:55 AM.
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  19. #49
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Here is a commercial unit. It uses 15kw of electric motors! So that is a hint of how much power is required...

    http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=695533

    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  20. #50
    Meh
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    26,940
    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    I edited my last reply to Az to include my reason to why this is not correct. Quite simply, if it were correct, a mechanical supercharger would not work. Including conversion losses, an electric system would probably only be 35% less efficient than a mechanical drive, but the power to drive it comes from the past, not the present (in a street car) so it would produce more power than a mechanical unit.

    A DC forklift motor may work with the RPMs required to spin a small supercharger. A turbo is problematic due to the high RPM involved.

    Who has a SC14 laying around?
    One plan I came up with (shamelessly stolen from a Heinkel WW2 high-altitude bomber) was to have a big blower sitting in the boot of the car and drive it with a small petrol engine, all isolated. You could get whatever boost you wanted at whatever engine revs you wanted that way.
    It was for a car a mate planned for Summernats and I also figured out you could fit a huge water/air intercooler in there as well, filled with dry ice to get the inlet air really cold.
    Maybe get away with it once, then it would be banned.

  21. #51
    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    11,230
    Quote Originally Posted by Billzilla View Post
    One plan I came up with (shamelessly stolen from a Heinkel WW2 high-altitude bomber) was to have a big blower sitting in the boot of the car and drive it with a small petrol engine, all isolated. You could get whatever boost you wanted at whatever engine revs you wanted that way.
    It was for a car a mate planned for Summernats and I also figured out you could fit a huge water/air intercooler in there as well, filled with dry ice to get the inlet air really cold.
    Maybe get away with it once, then it would be banned.
    I also though of an electric system to power HP heros cars. Zero pumping losses for extra power on a dyno run. Would work in a drag application too, but the weight would probably make you come out worse off there...
    10.83 @ 125

    Quickest stock exhaust manifold stud 2JZ in Aus.


    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  22. #52
    Ease Up Turbo Commotion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bogan City
    Posts
    813
    I have thought about it before and thought with the brushless motors available nowa days and hi current li-pos it has to be getting close to feasible. I think u will need to use motors that have hi kv ratings to avoid using gearboxes to keep efficiency as high as possible which will most likely mean using an in runner motor. Also the compressor wheel could be made from a lightweight composite material to reduce inertia. A brushless motor at no load only draws a couple amps so running up the motor below boost speeds will not consume much power.

  23. #53
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Qld
    Posts
    1,361
    Quote Originally Posted by dynoryder View Post
    I just did some rough maths.
    You said it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dynoryder View Post
    I just did some rough maths.

    This project is doomed from day one.
    If you can build a prius then you can build a system to supply pressurized air to an engine using electricity. Just depends on how much you want to spend and your ability.

  24. #54
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Melbourne, S.E. suburbs
    Posts
    1,443
    dynoryder, a two litre motor at 5000rpm will go through 5000 litres of air, not 10k, so halve the other numbers.

    to the two that said leccy motor is better on the crank. The motors being used in theory here, are 5-8kw from what I read (only scanned this thread briefly), they can only add 5-8kw to a crank, but using it to pump boost into a motor may add 30+kw.

  25. #55
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    15,292
    .
    Last edited by Gammaboy; 20-06-13 at 09:01 PM.

  26. #56
    Meh
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Gold Coast
    Posts
    26,940
    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    You know Bentley did it pre WW2?
    Errr ... I do now.
    Linkage?

  27. #57
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cuntberra
    Posts
    6,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben. View Post
    dynoryder, a two litre motor at 5000rpm will go through 5000 litres of air, not 10k, so halve the other numbers.

    to the two that said leccy motor is better on the crank. The motors being used in theory here, are 5-8kw from what I read (only scanned this thread briefly), they can only add 5-8kw to a crank, but using it to pump boost into a motor may add 30+kw.
    Oh yea shit too many beers

  28. #58
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    479
    Not electric but not too far off topic
    http://bangshift.com/blog/freaking-a...he-blower.html

  29. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cuntberra
    Posts
    6,096
    I once pondered a turboprop driven compressor........

    But of course you may as well just use the turbo prop to drive the wheels (which has been done before in the 50's).
    Last edited by Rdyno; 24-05-13 at 07:47 PM.

  30. #60
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Darwin NT Oz (up top down under)
    Posts
    630
    We to have thought about elec turbs, even discussed wether you could pre-spool a turbo at low rpm. The conclusion we came too was a big air tank, smallish compressor that can fill it in relativly short time upto a good psi, inject the compessed air into the inlet mani by button, solenoid, inj & lines have an ecu and fuel system that can cope and adjust accordingly.

    even if it did work it would only be good for short bursts :/

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •