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Thread: Electric turbo?

  1. #61
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Last edited by Gammaboy; 20-06-13 at 09:01 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
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  3. #63
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    I still don't know why you wouldn't smash a big electric motor onto the front of the crank and hook speed controller up to throttle.

  4. #64
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Last edited by Gammaboy; 20-06-13 at 09:01 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    They built what was basically a tiny Bentley motor (complete with the crank/rod drive for the cam) to run it, but didn't finish it, and from memory they used an Austin seven motor to drive the blower instead... Had full boost available at idle...
    Righto.
    Whilst it's nice to have full boost available at low revs you can't actually use it though, the engine will often ping itself to death. But for sure it'd be nice to be able to get a bit more air flowing at low revs.

  6. #66
    Hungry Hungry Hippo Tripper's Avatar
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    Only advantage of a electric turbo using current technology i see is, using one to build boost on a drag car on a compound type of set up
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by myliberty View Post
    I still don't know why you wouldn't smash a big electric motor onto the front of the crank and hook speed controller up to throttle.
    Because you would make more power by using the electric motor to create boost. I think it would be better to use a FWD hot hatch, then join the electric motor to the back wheels rather than join it to the crank. Something like that would be pretty cool. But the costs would be huge for an motor worth installing.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 25-05-13 at 08:52 AM.
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  8. #68
    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    Mylib, I reckon you're onto something. Perhaps a regenerative motor charging a battery pack that can then be used as an additional power source to redrive that motor.

    Maybe call Toyota and see if they're keen for this in the Camry. Could call it KERS or something.
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  10. #70
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    Great so it works!

    Cliffs, T3 compressor with 50,000 rpm brushless motor, using 2 x small motorbike batteries drawing 150A gave 4.5psi down low tapering off to 2.5 psi for 30% more torque and 25% more power on a VW golf.

    This is a very worthwhile gain with only 150A draw. Its unclear if the batteries were in series or parallel, so its hard to gauge power draw. It is either 1.8 or 3.6kw. If it was a 12 volt system that gain is VERY impressive for only 1.8kw of power consumed. They noted there was no tendency for the batteries to run flat.

    With a bigger motor and turbo impressive gains are to be made. I assume larger compressors need less RPM, so might be better suited to the speeds we can get from electric motors.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 25-05-13 at 12:43 PM.
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  11. #71
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    Good find!
    Quite a clever idea there, I like it. I like it better than any of the other ideas here in fact.

  12. #72
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    I like it better than any of the other ideas here in fact.
    Like putting a high RPM dc brushless motor onto the compressor side of the turbo? Missing italics?
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Like putting a high RPM dc brushless motor onto the compressor side of the turbo? Missing italics?
    No italics - as I mentioned earlier if you put an electric motor on the front of a turbo you still have to have a decoupling the motor from the turbo when it spins up. And also keep the air clean with all the mechanical bits sitting in the compressor inlet.

  14. #74
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    Bill this guy has done EXACTLY what I have been talking about. If you had something else in mind, it may have been due a bad description on my part

    Edit, read the first post again. Its pretty clear I thought?
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 25-05-13 at 01:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Bill this guy has done EXACTLY what I have been talking about. If you had something else in mind, it may have been due a bad description on my part.
    Oh okay sorry, I may well have miss-read what you wrote.
    I thought you meant spinning-up the turbo that's already sitting on the engine.
    Anyway, good idea matey!
    (Just looking at electric motors now .....)

  16. #76
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    OK, I will find my old RC-groups log in. If anyone knows about these motors it will be there....
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    OK, I will find my old RC-groups log in. If anyone knows about these motors it will be there....
    Good idea.
    FWIW this one - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html should do about 22,000 rpm with no load.
    You can calculate the rpm by looking at the revs/v, which in this case is 500rpm/v in the specs. They state a 12s battery so that's twelve 3.7 volt cells or 44.4 volts.
    20,000 rpm odd is starting to get useful I reckon.

  18. #78
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    This one does 57,000 rpm but I doubt it'd have the grunt to spin a turbo compressor fast enough.
    http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html

  19. #79
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    Yeah bill that seems to be the prob, the faster units lack the power.

    Just made a thread in the section about custom motor design: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...5#post25087044

    You think 20,000 will be enough? I asked about 50,000 plus. Lets start getting technical with compressor maps etc. That's not my area of expertise. (not that I have one )

    Here is a GT3071. Seems not much is happening below 59,000 rpm, which is where the map starts. Smaller turbos need even more RPM. Now I guess someone will be able to use the chart to calculate the power required by using efficiency, air flow and pressure ratios etc. I assume there are laws which govern how much energy it takes to compress X amount of air...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Yeah bill that seems to be the prob, the faster units lack the power.

    Just made a thread in the section about custom motor design: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...5#post25087044

    You think 20,000 will be enough? I asked about 50,000 plus. Lets start getting technical with compressor maps etc. That's not my area of expertise. (not that I have one )

    Here is a GT3071. Seems not much is happening below 59,000 rpm, which is where the map starts. Smaller turbos need even more RPM.
    I don't think you'll find a single model aircraft electric motor that can do what you want, but maybe if you join two or three end to end ...? Make the electrics complicated though.

    I pictured more of a system that made the main turbo on the engine wake-up a lot earlier and so you could get by with a relatively small unit and a single motor.

  21. #81
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    There is always gearing, but I want to explore all avenues with different motors first. The forum I asked on is the custom motor section, so if its possible I think I will get an answer there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  22. #82
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    Dark orange touched on Variable Vane Turbos before, and honestly that is perhaps the more logical method of using boost pressure quicker. Not sure they offer those in big turbos though. My quick ponder is to retro fit the flange with a nozzleing system to increase exhaust gas velocity to the exhaust vanves at low rpm ,essentially a moving version of what twin scroll flanges do quite well now. The downside I forsee is getting a moving part to work properly and reliably in that heat.

    Edit: Had another though, the nozzles have to be as simple as possible, so perhaps they can be on isolated large springs that will move them under the right amount of boost.
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    Last edited by littlefireyone; 25-05-13 at 04:34 PM.

  23. #83
    Registered User 9triton's Avatar
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    in a similiar vein - but aeronautical
    early ' jet'
    1940 camproni :

    piston engine drove compressor which put air into a combustion chamber and fuel added
    hey presto a quasi jet engine.- with all the weight and ineficiencies of a piston
    engine and not harvesting the exhasut energy to dtrive the compressor.


    but it did fly


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Campini_N.1
    As designed by Campini, the aircraft did not have a jet engine in the sense that we know them today. Rather, a conventional 900 hp (670 kW) Isotta Fraschini L.121 RC.40 12-cylinder liquid-cooled piston engine was used to drive a compressor, which forced air into a combustion chamber where it was mixed with fuel and ignited.[2] The exhaust produced by this combustion was to drive the aircraft forward. Campini called this configuration a "thermojet," but the term "motorjet" is in common usage today for this arrangement since thermojet is now used to refer to a particular type of pulsejet (an unrelated form of jet engine). It has also been described as a ducted fan.[3]




  24. #84
    Registered User 9triton's Avatar
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    and thinking the other way - have a turbine in the exhasut (ie normal turbo hotside) and via a gearbox connect it to an alternator - trim the turbine wheels so it only extracts 10kw(or whatever the alternator needs)

    hey presto

    drive your 250 amp alternator off waste exhasut gasses , with no engine performance loss and charge the batteries -to drive the electric compressor .
    Last edited by 9triton; 26-05-13 at 05:43 AM.

  25. #85
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    Getting there. 60,000rpm but only 2.2kw with 4.5kw surge, at only 26V

    http://www.neumotors.com/Site/1500_series.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  26. #86
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    you cant spell advertisements without semen between the tits

  27. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Getting there. 60,000rpm but only 2.2kw with 4.5kw surge, at only 26V

    http://www.neumotors.com/Site/1500_series.html
    I will find you a motor i'll have to find the link again iirc it will do 80,000 takes 48v and outputs 5kw.
    Last edited by Rdyno; 26-05-13 at 11:07 AM.

  28. #88
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    Not sure if its been mentioned, but the 205 T16s apparently had a motor on the turbo charger to stop it from slowing down when not being actively driven by exhaust gas.

    There is also this entry on wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_turbocharger
    The guys doing it there have a 26kw motor though
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  29. #89
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    Cheers guys.

    Here is a calculator used to figure out how much power it takes to compress air. I'm just guessing figures here.

    NA 2 liter engine will draw a max of around 210cfm? 2L X 6000 rpm / 2 (because of 4 stroke) = 6000lpm. Convert to CFM = 210 cfm @ 100VE.

    This engine will consume 315cfm at half a bar boost. (210cfm X 1.5 absolute pressure)

    So if I enter 315cfm and an absolute pressure of 22psi (roughly the absolute pressue at sea level plus half a bar of boost). It comes up with 9.2hp required when using an adiabatic expansion coefficient of 1.41. Not that know what the expansion coefficient should be.

    Maths check anyone?

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ho...ir-d_1363.html

    Anyone care to guess how much HP a theoretical 2L engine with a 100% VE will make @ 6000rpm with 0.5 bar of boost? If this calculation is even remotely correct it shows that the amount of HP the turbo will require is very small compared to the total output of the boosted engine.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 27-05-13 at 02:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
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  30. #90
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    Have you attached the electric motor to your crankshaft yet?

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