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Thread: Electric turbo?

  1. #91
    Boob dude to4garret's Avatar
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    you mean like the starter motor?

  2. #92
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    Yeah. Via a gear system. It operates every time I turn the ignition key all the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  3. #93
    Opposed to the PFAD Bill
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    Yes, I mean like the starter motor, but geared to deliver max torque from 2-6k rpm, not 0-250rpm.

  4. #94
    Registered User 9triton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Cheers guys.

    Here is a calculator used to figure out how much power it takes to compress air. I'm just guessing figures here.

    NA 2 liter engine will draw a max of around 210cfm? 2L X 6000 rpm / 2 (because of 4 stroke) = 6000lpm. Convert to CFM = 210 cfm @ 100VE.

    This engine will consume 315cfm at half a bar boost. (210cfm X 1.5 absolute pressure)

    So if I enter 315cfm and an absolute pressure of 22psi (roughly the absolute pressue at sea level plus half a bar of boost). It comes up with 9.2hp required when using an adiabatic expansion coefficient of 1.41. Not that know what the expansion coefficient should be.

    Maths check anyone?

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ho...ir-d_1363.html

    Anyone care to guess how much HP a theoretical 2L engine with a 100% VE will make @ 6000rpm with 0.5 bar of boost? If this calculation is even remotely correct it shows that the amount of HP the turbo will require is very small compared to the total output of the boosted engine.
    formula quoted needs the cfm at atmopheric pressure

    and the adiabatic compression formula wont include energy that goes into heating the air- which happens in real world .(sort of an efficiency of compression)

    comprssors in small sizes only have 70 odd % efficeinecy -as per your chart above

    so add 60%+ for actual power requiremnt- . ie 100/70 x hp calculated + safety margin = motor sizing

  5. #95
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    I worked out the CFM at atmospheric pressure in my calcs. In na form a 2L engine uses 210cfm, at 1.5 bar it still uses 210cfm after the turbo, but before the turbo (atmospheric) it will use 315cfm.

    Yeah the compressor map will be where I should look for efficiency and it appears to be around 65-78%.

    I am not sure what the calc I linked to is doing with efficiency already though... Does the "adiabatic expansion coefficient" of 1.41 already take this somewhat into account? I doubt it because changing the figure only makes small changes in required power. The site is for piston air compressors. I doubt they would be more efficient than a compressor wheel, plus they still heat the air as does anything that compresses it, so I wonder if a rule of thumb loss has already been added. In any case we have some ball park figures of the power needed.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 27-05-13 at 10:28 PM.
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    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  6. #96
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    Dumb thought. Isn't the ultimate goal forcing more air and fuel into the cylinders? Why don't we just have a tank collecting air that could be generated by another means like slowing down of the car and store air in a bottle so when it's all "charged up", it releases at a control rate to make it somewhat useful.

  7. #97
    too old for this shit Kiahatsiu's Avatar
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    That would hard to tune for I would have thought. How would the stored compressed air be triggered, how would it be metered and er... I lost my train of thought here.
    Didn't zoom or autospeed, it was the coach either way, do this with a camira?
    Torque sells tow cars.
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  8. #98
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    Oh ok. You've got a point about tuning for it.

  9. #99
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    the problem with storing it in a tank is volume.

    2jzr31, all things being equal (which they never are), at .5bar boost, you should gain 50% power, 1bar = 100%

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben. View Post
    the problem with storing it in a tank is volume.

    2jzr31, all things being equal (which they never are), at .5bar boost, you should gain 50% power, 1bar = 100%
    Yeah, I got that. I was wondering how much power an electric turbo would support in my scenario of a 2L with 100% VE @ 6000rpm.

    The best application I can think of to use this device would be in a compound arrangement. You would use it on a regular turboed engine, but with a much larger than normal turbo. The electric turbo goes between the big turbo and the intercooler. The characteristics of the electric turbo are that it can make a lot of boost down low and less higher up. This will be perfect in the compound arrangement.

    At low RPM the ET will provide lag free performance all while providing a lot of exhaust gas to spool the bigger turbo up. The small turbo will NOT be a restriction to the flow of the large turbo since it is after the large turbo and will be handing small volumes of air (but a large mass) since the air will be compressed by the big turbo. As long as the ET is able to produce some positive boost on the engine on its own at redline it will be a power adder at all revs.

    This could be better than a usual compound turbo because plumbing is piss easy and does not require huge boost to be effective. It does not add a huge exhuast restriction with one small turbine in series with a big turbo.

    This could be better than a PD blower compounded with a turbo since there is little to no parasitic loss from the ET since the loads on the engine are averaged out over time via the charging system. Also, with the SC-Turbo setup you need to choose a lower than total boost from the SC since it can not be changed on the fly, so that the turbo can still add to the boost when it comes online. With the ET twin charge you can just set to run full tilt and its pretty much self regulating, plus the more boost the ET makes the more power you will have since it is not relying on back pressure to create boost.

    The ET would only need to be big enough to produce a few psi at redline to be effective (it will be able to produce a lot down low if it can produce a few PSI at redline) so will do its job of reducing lag and bringing a big turbo online.

    According to the pressure HP calc I linked to, adding stages (compound boost) increases efficiency, so more power is to be had in total as well. This normally is not the case in most twin charge setups due to the power draw required to run the compounding device. Such as shitty exhaust plumbing in the case of twin compound turbos, or the power needed to turn a blower.

    Yeah, thats right. I couldn't sleep last night so thought about this for a couple of hours.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 28-05-13 at 06:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    At low RPM the ET will provide lag free performance all while providing a lot of exhaust gas to spool the bigger turbo up. The small turbo will NOT be a restriction to the flow of the large turbo since it is after the large turbo and will be handing small volumes of air since the air will be compressed. As long as the ET is able to produce some positive boost on the engine on its own at redline it will be a power adder at all revs.
    I had a think about it as well and if you have a blow-in door after the electric-powered compressor then the main turbo can suck as much air as it needs without any restriction. Have the air inlet for both the electric compressor and blow-in door come through an air cleaner, etc.

  12. #102
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    That is not required or even desirable. The ET will not be a restriction in any way if it sized so it can produce boost on its own at all revs. Think of it this way. The intake of the ET will be able to suck MORE cfm than the engine on its own, if the ET is able to produce boost on that engine.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 28-05-13 at 06:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    That is not required or even desirable. The ET will not be a restriction in any way if it sized so it can produce boost on its own at all revs. Think of it this way. The intake of the ET will be able to suck MORE cfm than the engine on its own, it the ET is able to produce boost on that engine.
    I reckon it would be, as from the electric motors point of view the turbo has to be small to spin quickly enough. Big would be better but then you start to need a very large electric motor, etc.
    There's also the factor of the inlet air being compressed twice and so double adiabatic heating.

    Anyway I still reckon you just make the engine bigger, give it a light flywheel, and size the turbo right. Much easier and effective.

  14. #104
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    2L engine at 6000rpm = 210cfm.
    2L engine at 6000rpm with 1psi = 225cfm before the E turbo.
    That's not a restriction. Its the opposite of a restriction. The engine will appear bigger to the large turbo.

    They are both before the intercooler, so heat will not be an issue. Plus for the same total boost the air will be heated LESS since 2 stage compression is more efficient.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 28-05-13 at 06:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billzilla View Post
    I had a think about it as well and if you have a blow-in door after the electric-powered compressor then the main turbo can suck as much air as it needs without any restriction. Have the air inlet for both the electric compressor and blow-in door come through an air cleaner, etc.
    Just re read this again. It appears you are thinking of having the ET before the turbo, otherwise it does not make sense? I would have the ET after the turbo for the reasons I explained, ie it will not be a restriction.

    The system you are talking about with the door has been discussed on PF already I am sure. I will try to dig the thread up... It would work best with a PD blower feeding a turbo. When the turbo is able to suck more air than the blower, the door opens and air is sucked through there. At this point the blower is unloaded and can be switched off. An excellent idea. Something I have also thought about trying one day.

    Here is the thread. http://performanceforums.com/forums/...light=compound
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 28-05-13 at 07:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  16. #106
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  17. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Just re read this again. It appears you are thinking of having the ET before the turbo, otherwise it does not make sense? I would have the ET after the turbo for the reasons I explained, ie it will not be a restriction.
    Okay had a think about it ..... interesting .....
    I don't know enough thermodynamic formulas to work it all out to help much sorry. But if it's cheap enough to try then give it a go.
    Still reckon bigger engine, light flywheel, etc, is a better way to go though - My WRX drives very nicely with no boost and the boost comes in without any 'hit', it's smooth-as.

  18. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Just made a thread in the section about custom motor design: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...5#post25087044
    The US version of Roger Cordia has joined the thread. LOL's in progress.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billzilla View Post
    The US version of Roger Cordia has joined the thread. LOL's in progress.
    Should setup a link to this thread

    Although I left my drunken attempt at math back a couple of pages so........
    Last edited by Rdyno; 29-05-13 at 11:17 PM.

  20. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by dynoryder View Post
    Should setup a link to this thread
    Post #4 has that.

  21. #111
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    Or dear. Danger to manifold.

    I will have to get on there and reply to the other guys. Most of the posters there seem switched on and positive.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 30-05-13 at 07:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  22. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Or dear. Danger to manifold.
    I had to, I had no choice ....

  23. #113
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    That was gold
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  24. #114
    Registered User 9triton's Avatar
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    found this whilst looking at hydrazine

    rocket powered turbo/supercharger:
    no need to worry about batteries .....



    The Turbonique Auxiliary Power Supercharger was shaped like turbocharger, had it's own spark plug, and a switch on the dash engaged it.

    Unlike conventional superchargers (which are driven by a belt from the crankshaft and take some crank horsepower to run), and unlike conventional turbo chargers (which use the exhaust energy to spin up the turbo), the Turbonique Auxiliary Power Supercharger had it's own fuel source to power itself ...

    When the switch was flipped, liquid oxygen and a rocket fuel named Thermolene were fed to the supercharger.

    Reported testing in 1963 on a Chevy 409 showed a horsepower gain from 405 horsepower stock, to a mammoth 835 hp with the supercharger engaged.

    The Thermolene fuel in itself had some weird properties. Almar.easynet.be reports ...

    "It could be stored in jerrycans, in the shadow. It had, nonetheless, some peculiar side effects: it was irritating to the skin, it would melt most plastics, rubbers, etc. and it would react under certain circumstances if in contact with some metals, like mild steel, in the presence of water."

  25. #115
    Boob dude to4garret's Avatar
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    Aren't those new dyson hand driers essentially an electric turbo?

  26. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by to4garret View Post
    Aren't those new dyson hand driers essentially an electric turbo?
    Probably no more than a hair dryer is an electric turbo.

    There has been a thread on the Turbonique gear on pf. They also have a rocket powered drag axle. The rocket powers the wheels through a turbine. Seems to go hand in hand with something like Hydrazine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

  27. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Probably no more than a hair dryer is an electric turbo.

    Pretty crazy looking hair dryer then


  28. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmh265 View Post
    Pretty crazy looking hair dryer then
    So a vacuum cleaner set on blow.

  29. #119
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    does anyone know how much hp it would take to drive a turbo (lets say GT30 sized) at 100,000rpm roughly?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rdyno
    70ynu has to be the most retarded cunt here. "Help me please" me "you need to remove your head" him "fuck off cunt I'm to lazy fuck off out of my thread you told me to do something I don't want to do so you're a cunt fuck off can some one please tell me an easier way???"
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  30. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmh265 View Post
    Pretty crazy looking hair dryer then

    OK. That does superficially look more like a turbo than a hair drier. But I seriously doubt it would have the power to produce boost on an engine.

    Mopar man. Your question needs more info. What boost level? What size engine? At which RPM? A GT30 @ 2psi on a 6L engine may only require a kw or 2 to turn 100,000rpm. But to produce 30psi on a 2L @ 100,000 it might take about 25kw +. I have done workings on how to figure it out in this thread using that calc I linked to. Its not 100% by any means but will give a approx figure.

    The size of the turbo is not the most important part of the power requirement. The amount of air flow and pressure is the important part. Different turbos will just change the efficiency. Obviously the compressor would need to be the right size for the application just like any turbo installation.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 02-06-13 at 03:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

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