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Thread: Holden Gone by 2017 - Is the Australian Media Killing our Car Industry

  1. #2131
    Places Unknown -Matt-'s Avatar
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    We have been ok with ZB especially RS & VXR but in our used yard we cant get enough Calasis Tourer V's or VRX's whihc sell for $42K ish EX HQ cars

  2. #2132
    Eurotrash :D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captiva Fan View Post
    So, no, but then a long description of what I said?

    Ill accept JB not JA, I dont know my Camiras very well.
    Except ... Camira Supercar!


    They did sell Vectras here, they even made some of the hippo-ear ones; they didnt exactly help the reputation of Opel-sourced Holdens ...

    Was the Ecomoo maybe sequential? I cant recall, just thought it would fit with the same-same-but-different approach they took with the Ecomoo.
    mate, your comment was like saying, my 1938 vauxhall 14/16 has a pre grey motor grey motor therefore my vfss is just the same....
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  3. #2133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloth View Post
    No. Camira was gms world car for the 80s. Its was a mk2 Cavalier, exact same car. That car saved gm europe from bankruptcy and smashed ford all over. The mk3 was a masterpwice and is hailed as the car of a generation. It was called a vectra in Europe but never came here apart from rhw calibra which was based on it. It spawned the tr astra, saab ng900 and all of daewoos 90s range. The vectra post 95 was an all new model that was until 2 weeks before launch, meant to be a mk4 cavalier. Opel vetod that and the rest is history. Early ones were soggy and had new tech that wasnt 100% but the post 98 ones were miles better, being fettled by lotus. Such a shame you never got the gsi by msd here. The next vec was a misfire sure, but at that point, 2002, trends had changed and suvs were the hot thing. Insignia is an excellent car, and the ukdm vxr a true masterpeice. Again, both platforms aldo formed the astras, saabs and buicks and some chevrolets. Australia's issue is its xenophobic mindset when discussing its "homegrown" car brands. A mindset that should have left with the last toranas....

    Oh and it was jb not ja.

    And note, all models were ground up designs, sure engines evolved, the mk3 cav had sequential injecton in 89. Commodore had to shag nissan for that...
    My vague memories recall the JB being nothing but a slug. Solid as a rock but a 1.8ltr slug. JC was no better, JE got the (no less wheezy) 2.0ltr?
    Anyways the 1st of the badge engineered Astras came out and we pulled close to 200km/hr in it. Pretty much the same 1.8 from the early Camira days, but made to work like an engine.
    Some VL/Ts struggled to get there.
    Mid-late 80s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skompa View Post
    Yeah, bit too nice for me, I prefer my R32s with mountains of bog and LS engines

  4. #2134
    PF's #1 soft roader advocate Captiva Fan's Avatar
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    ^ I never druv one, but I thought the 2L Camira was actually supposed to be fairly reasonable, a bit quicker 0-100 than (say) a 4AGE Corolla?
    In most ways apart from performance, RWD skids & longevity, Camira was better than Torana so I imagine a JE had the ability to handle if set-up properly, so it makes sense JE could've made an OK-ish "sorta-hot not-hatch".
    Last edited by Captiva Fan; 13-06-19 at 07:59 AM.
    Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

  5. #2135
    Resident Oaf Jim's Avatar
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    The camira was an absolute shitbox. As was the Button plan pulsar, astra and vectra with the Family II engines. Part of the problem was Australian conditions and another part was how long we kept cars for at the time when compared to Europe or the US. Remember that a camira at the time cost the same as the average annual wage. So people kept cars on average 10-15 years where in Europe it was maybe 5-10.

    The rotating water pump for cam belt adjustment meant water pumps would corrode and seize in place, clutch cables stretched and broke, lifters would flog out, cams would snap on hot days and a million other stupid things.

    They went well and handled brilliantly but having to live with them daily made people hate them and it ruined the Opel brand in Australia.

    When I was in the trade our workshop was full of camiras, oil drippy XFs, EA falcons and endless Red motors for rebuild because they were all over 300,000km on cast iron rings.

    All my English friends rave about the cavalier. But here they were the worst car on the road at the time.
    Turns out, far too much has been written about great men and not nearly enough about morons


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  6. #2136
    PF's #1 soft roader advocate Captiva Fan's Avatar
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    ^ I'm not sure Camira was necessarily associated with Opel back then, was it?
    I don't remember linking them as a kid, I remember "knowing" Camiras were rusty fragile shit but it was the same with Geminis, so rather than Opel being damaged-goods it was more like any Holden that wasn't a RWD front-engined 6+ cylinder.
    And given the old man had a few Toyotas and then company-car policy changed to Falcodores, we pretty much thought Commodores were unreliable shit too.
    Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

  7. #2137
    I AM the State Sturmovik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    The camira was an absolute shitbox. As was the Button plan pulsar, astra and vectra with the Family II engines. Part of the problem was Australian conditions and another part was how long we kept cars for at the time when compared to Europe or the US. Remember that a camira at the time cost the same as the average annual wage. So people kept cars on average 10-15 years where in Europe it was maybe 5-10.

    The rotating water pump for cam belt adjustment meant water pumps would corrode and seize in place, clutch cables stretched and broke, lifters would flog out, cams would snap on hot days and a million other stupid things.

    They went well and handled brilliantly but having to live with them daily made people hate them and it ruined the Opel brand in Australia.

    When I was in the trade our workshop was full of camiras, oil drippy XFs, EA falcons and endless Red motors for rebuild because they were all over 300,000km on cast iron rings.

    All my English friends rave about the cavalier. But here they were the worst car on the road at the time.
    No 2.6 Magnas?
    I wasn't in the trade long and was only a small workshop but it seemed to be never ending amount of first gen Magnas.
    And my dad's Mrs had one too, 160k kms and both the engine and trans were buggered and she had it from new with full service history.
    Funniest part is he keeps buying mitsubishis and has had heaps of problems.
    Latest was his triton waiting 6 months for a new engine under warranty. Luckily he bought it when they offered 10 year warranty for a short period.
    Last edited by Sturmovik; 13-06-19 at 08:12 PM.

  8. #2138
    Registered User GSRman's Avatar
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    I have wailed on both Camira and Magna alike - exceptional

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    This is a post i wrote by mistake, which is nice...

  9. #2139
    lurker since 02 Reax's Avatar
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    Dont forget that the JB Camira won the Wheels COTY.
    "It takes beer to make thirst worth while."

  10. #2140
    and then! maddy's Avatar
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    My old man bought one off the back of that review. What a POS. If you drove it 4 hrs, you had to let it cool down 30 mins before it would start again, in summer.


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  11. #2141
    PF's #1 soft roader advocate Captiva Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reax View Post
    Dont forget that the JB Camira won the Wheels COTY.
    This says more about every single other car released that year than it does about the Camira.
    Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

  12. #2142
    Registered User LB-XP's Avatar
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    Australia really did get some fucking shit locally made cars in the 80's

  13. #2143
    PF's #1 soft roader advocate Captiva Fan's Avatar
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    A bit rough blaming Camiras badness on Australia ... by the same token wed have to claim the goodness of the likes of the AE82 Twin Cam and the N14 SSS.
    Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

  14. #2144
    Registered User LB-XP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captiva Fan View Post
    A bit rough blaming Camiras badness on Australia ... by the same token wed have to claim the goodness of the likes of the AE82 Twin Cam and the N14 SSS.
    Ok, there were a couple of diamonds in the rough. I've owned both of those!
    Last edited by LB-XP; 13-06-19 at 10:29 PM.

  15. #2145
    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim View Post
    The camira was an absolute shitbox. As was the Button plan pulsar, astra and vectra with the Family II engines. Part of the problem was Australian conditions and another part was how long we kept cars for at the time when compared to Europe or the US. Remember that a camira at the time cost the same as the average annual wage. So people kept cars on average 10-15 years where in Europe it was maybe 5-10.

    The rotating water pump for cam belt adjustment meant water pumps would corrode and seize in place, clutch cables stretched and broke, lifters would flog out, cams would snap on hot days and a million other stupid things.

    They went well and handled brilliantly but having to live with them daily made people hate them and it ruined the Opel brand in Australia.

    When I was in the trade our workshop was full of camiras, oil drippy XFs, EA falcons and endless Red motors for rebuild because they were all over 300,000km on cast iron rings.

    All my English friends rave about the cavalier. But here they were the worst car on the road at the time.
    I think the only place where the J platform worked was in Europe as an Opel or Vauxhall. They were even worse in the US where they had to shove V6s into them because the yanks didn't look at 4 cyl, not helped by GM's arrogance. Build quality of the early Camiras didn't help, the local plants weren't used to cars that had minimal adjustment for production like the Torana and Kingswoods.

  16. #2146
    I AM the State Sturmovik's Avatar
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    Shame no one has ever done a Cimarron front end conversation on a Camira.

  17. #2147
    lurker since 02 Reax's Avatar
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    https://www.caradvice.com.au/763318/...sales-figures/

    14 months of declining sales, not just holden though.
    Last edited by Reax; 14-06-19 at 10:15 AM.
    "It takes beer to make thirst worth while."

  18. #2148
    Eurotrash :D
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    yeah, thats cos of this thing called a recession.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    Only be concerned if that Dunning-Kruger Motorsports bloke is there and goes all Captain Damphands McGigglefingers on you after a couple of lemon squashes....


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  19. #2149
    Super Moderator Morgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reax View Post
    https://www.caradvice.com.au/763318/...sales-figures/

    14 months of dealing sales, not just holden though.
    I'd love to see the numbers on the Holden Commodore - what they used to sell (in volume/value). I dare say due to the fact they had a huge backlog of stock to work through this was as a result of sales not hitting their expected forecast. With this in mind I wonder if they would've shut the doors on production in the first place?

    The problem when we start bringing the word "recession" into the picture is that shutting down things like local car production is a contributing factor. This particular example goes further than this. I don't know the finer details, but the ownership structure of Ford & Holden with their parent US companies was not going to work long term. You've got a wedge where the parent companies want to try and milk markets for profitability, and are constantly looking to reduce complexity. Holden & Ford were at odds to these objectives and as a result we end up where we are, but it is a situation where as inefficient as the local industry was from a production perspective it was more important to our economy than these parent US companies. And we'd just started making really good cars. Shame.

    Fast forward in 20 years time and I suppose it would've been inevitable. Even more so we wouldn't have been able to compete on the global scale in the electric era.
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  20. #2150
    lurker since 02 Reax's Avatar
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    Well if wikipedia is correct (2010 - 2018)

    2010 45,956
    2011 40,617
    2012 30,532
    2013 27,766
    2014 30,203
    2015 27,770
    2016 25,860
    2017 23,676
    2018 9,040
    2019 1368 (Until March)
    "It takes beer to make thirst worth while."

  21. #2151
    PF's #1 soft roader advocate Captiva Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgs View Post
    Even more so we wouldn't have been able to compete on the global scale in the electric era.
    Except if Tesla can exist, there's no reason (apart from no company manufacturing being local) we couldn't have competed.
    Although whether Tesla can continue as a car company once manufacturers who can screw 'em together properly start selling competitors for 2/3 the price, I dunno.

    On the volume of Commodes sold, some of that 2018 figure of 9040 would have been discounted VF2's, they said they'd made enough stock to keep selling at the same rate for quite a few months (and once the car was "the old one" sales would have started to trail off).
    But on the other hand, Holden were saying publically that they only expected to sell 5% as many ZB's as VF's, due to the car being much more niche targeted in the market as it stood in 2018.
    Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

  22. #2152
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaikai View Post
    My vague memories recall the JB being nothing but a slug. Solid as a rock but a 1.8ltr slug. JC was no better, JE got the (no less wheezy) 2.0ltr?
    .
    JB. 1.6
    JD 1.6 and the 1.8l multiport injected ( from slug to slingshot)
    JD ULP...1.8 throttle body injected. Slug again.
    JE 2l mpfi...slingshot again

    I had a N13 pulsar q with the ulp 1.8l mpfi engine. It was a fast car in 1988. Would redline in 5th gear

  23. #2153
    aka SpaZdA (tm) mondo2000's Avatar
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    JE Camira = Mini_VL

  24. #2154
    PF's #1 soft roader advocate Captiva Fan's Avatar
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    ^ Well, given that Camira was what the Euros call a "D Segment" car, and the current Commodore is what the Euros call a "D Segment" car yep, same-same.
    Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

  25. #2155
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    JD slug to slingshot...wow, I'm not the only one who remembers the Wheels story headline from 85! A white JD it was too. I've still got the magazine, along with all the others, dammit!

    Ah the all white out specials of the 80's, good times. Looking at you Turbo Laser! Oh, an my parents had a Charade Bianco stickered special too from about 91, with, wait for it, white hubcaps! Wowee. White out specials, generally accompanied by fluro leotards, big hair and white Reeboks in the adverts if my memory serves me at all.

  26. #2156
    anyone? MRMOPARMAN's Avatar
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    Dont forget the pulsar reebok 😂
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  27. #2157
    Registered User bigshipengine.jpg's Avatar
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    Or the Carla Zampatti Laser..



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    Registered User Mr Purple's Avatar
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  29. #2159
    PF's #1 soft roader advocate Captiva Fan's Avatar
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    Does the fact that they were actually a good car preclude me from saying White Lightning in this context?

    A mate was looking to buy one (we'd been somewhat blown away by the just-released SR20DE N14 & he was considering used alternatives with similar performance but more depreciation), the dealer insisted the wheels were white because they were "rally wheels".

    That'll be why 200MPH's olds' Charade Bianco had white hubcaps, they were rally hubcaps.
    Soft roaders represent an excellent compromise between the needs of the hardcore 4x4 user and the convenience of a city hatchback. Its clear to see why they have become so popular in todays society.

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