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Thread: ECU Tunes and Installs

  1. #61
    Registered User JZK25's Avatar
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    David Fraser - Automotive Historian!

    Quote Originally Posted by bigmuz View Post
    You can't polish a turd but you can put 600hp in it and laugh your fucking arse off coming past someone sideways at Powercruise.

  2. #62
    Arrogant wankeler Slides's Avatar
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    They had VE fuel map with injector staging a shit load sooner than haltech for one (Which Haltech have only just released?? and only on the elite??).

    Self tuning in sub $1500 ecu for aaaages, before Haltech.

    I can't recall but I'm pretty sure the TC implementation was before haltech too.

    Proper PID closed loop boost control with TPS scaling/biasing before Haltech??

    Pretty sure they had positive or negative interpolated rpm/load rotary spark split table before haltech?? Or you could run a separate fuel or ignition table for trailing/secondary injectors, etc etc.


    But I don't see why this thread should be whored up with an ecu battle, they are both reasonably flexible and powerful for what most punters want/will open their wallet for tuner to do, at both the Haltech sport/Platinum vs Adaptronic 400 series and Elite/ 1280 series levels. I would say at each approx price point the adaptronics tend to come in a touch cheaper for features?? But it really depends what you want to run and what features/injectors/ancillaries etc.

    Fuck me this isn't Ausrotary and we are not talking about microtechs.

    Someone recommending an adaptronic for a particular application is not suggesting they are the be all and end all of ecus or that Haltech is shit, nor is it a slight on Dale or yourself, fuck me any time I talk to someone who isn't a muppet/time waster/DIY tuner who is looking to get work done in NSW I recommend CHE for Rotary/Jap/Aus tuning stuff.

    As burn says below, PLC in most of the after market automotive shit any of us are likely to play with is fucking simple compared to a lot of production process control PLC systems. Even a knuckle dragging longwall face control system is shitloads more complex.
    Last edited by Slides; 16-05-15 at 01:49 AM.

  3. #63
    \_(ツ)_/ burn is weird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pupat View Post
    Yeah it would be nice to write in Structure Text or something and build more complex function blocks but it'd likely add a fair chunk of overhead compared with programming it using their basic blocks.
    It would be possible, but you would need a sub compiler for your custom blocks that gets turned into something the FPGA can understand. Defined IO as you dont have text variables, memory addressing or shift registers. It would be a bit involved. values in ecu are all fixed point .02 precison and singular data type however so that's no issue.

    Raw code that the new m1 series motecs support in the developer series look very powerful but your also looking a 5 or 6 grand.


    You've got pretty much every basic logic block you could need to program anything in the 1280, but it could get a bit messy visually for more complex stuff.

    As far as I'm concerned for an ECU, if it can pick up a trigger accurately, calc loop is fast enough for changing process conditions and fires the inj and ign outputs at the exact angle and duration the code asks of it, then any problems after that are operator error. What an aftermarket ecu is doing to run a motor isn't rocket surgery.

    Only possible concern I have at this stage is how well it reads the 360 optical Nissan CAS. Some ecus have trouble with it, seperate to the whole flappy timing belt cas scatter issue inherent with a cam sensor. Yes can be fixed with a hall crank trigger, but want to give oem a go for interests sake. Watch this space.
    Last edited by burn is weird; 16-05-15 at 12:36 AM.

    Oo___oO


  4. #64
    sack riding 10sec rx7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slides View Post
    They had VE fuel map with injector staging a shit load sooner than haltech for one (Which Haltech have only just released?? and only on the elite??).

    Self tuning in sub $1500 ecu for aaaages, before Haltech.

    I can't recall but I'm pretty sure the TC implementation was before haltech too.

    Proper PID closed loop boost control with TPS scaling/biasing before Haltech??

    Pretty sure they had positive or negative interpolated rpm/load rotary spark split table before haltech?? Or you could run a separate fuel or ignition table for trailing/secondary injectors, etc etc.


    But I don't see why this thread should be whored up with an ecu battle, they are both reasonably flexible and powerful for what most punters want/will open their wallet for tuner to do, at both the Haltech sport/Platinum vs Adaptronic 400 series and Elite/ 1280 series levels. I would say at each approx price point the adaptronics tend to come in a touch cheaper for features?? But it really depends what you want to run and what features/injectors/ancillaries etc.

    Fuck me this isn't Ausrotary and we are not talking about microtechs.

    Someone recommending an adaptronic for a particular application is not suggesting they are the be all and end all of ecus or that Haltech is shit, nor is it a slight on Dale or yourself, fuck me any time I talk to someone who isn't a muppet/time waster/DIY tuner who is looking to get work done in NSW I recommend CHE for Rotary/Jap/Aus tuning stuff.

    As burn says below, PLC in most of the after market automotive shit any of us are likely to play with is fucking simple compared to a lot of production process control PLC systems. Even a knuckle dragging longwall face control system is shitloads more complex.
    why the fuck you having a go at me?? i just laughed at AL asking the question about why its better than everything else..

    i dont give a fuck what you think they had before haltech had it, i really couldn't care less.. all i care about is the end result.. ive used EVERY ecu there is to use thats made in Australia and i choose to use haltech for a reason.. one is it has a proper motorsport connector..
    im a cunt
    and apparently i dont know shit...

  5. #65
    Registered User glenn's Avatar
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    Ecu battles lol. Truth is you probably can't go too wrong with any of the current offerings.

    I like Adaptronic because you can actually talk to Andy.

    The new Haltech Elite looks like a game changer to me and if you buy from Dale you get awesome support too.

  6. #66
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Anything that is used in the fuel calculation has to be set up perfectly prior to any tuning. Things to set up include;
    • MAP Sensor
    • ECT
    • Dead Time
    • IAT
    • Engine size
    • Injector size
    • RPM

    The way an efi calculation is done in a modern ECU is a series of mathamatic rules and equations to calculate how much fuel and timing is required for the current conditions. These conditions are monitored by some of the above sensors. Basically (very basically) the injector opening time is back calculated by taking the current rpm and load VE value and apply corrections such as dead time, coolant temp and air temp, post start enrich and others. VE calculation required.

    The importance of dead time in the calculation.

    You very often hear of cars not being able to idle well because of large injectors. While this is sometime actually due to the injectors inability to open reliably at small duty cycles, it is almost always caused by incorrect dead time settings and poor idle tuning. Often, the dead time is incorrect and then compensated for in the VE table, and while still working fine, this is less than ideal because it isn't a true indication of engine VE at all.

    The graph below shows flow rates of two injectors against time at 12v. The smaller injector (orange line) gets up to 370cc/min in about 1ms, while the larger 850cc injector takes 2ms to get to full flow. These two injectors have lag times of 1ms and 2ms respectivly. Injector lag time, dead time or latency depending on where you are from, matters because as you can see, injectors tend to open fully in different amounts of time. The area under each line is the amount of fuel delivered for any given time and can be worked out using calculus/integration.
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    Say your engine needs 1ms of actual fuel delivery at 370cc. The ecu ECU doing the VE calculation works out it needs that 1ms of injection, but will add the extra 1ms of opening time to the injector and drive for a total of 2ms to get its desired fuel in to the engine. If you replace injectors and program the ecu with the new injector flow rate of 850cc and not the new dead time, the ecu will work out it need a much smaller injection time, and add the dead time of 1ms to it. Looking at the graph, our bigger injectors don't even open till 2ms, so you are going to get very little fuel. Changing the dead time to 2ms, the ecu will include it in the calculation for total dead time and drive the injector for 2.4ms now. 2ms of dead time and the 0.4ms of required fuel.


    Often injectors have a "Lag" value quoted but no dead time or latency table. This lag value is the latency at 12v. Idealy, you want a lag time vs voltage table for your injectors, as for lower applied voltage to the injector, it takes longer to open.

    Back calculating dead time!
    Using maths and AFR deviation I often back calculate dead time should the injector be unknown. For a given voltage (14v), if your VE table is perfect then a change in target AFR should result in near perfect measured change in AFR. Lets use the 370cc injector for example. The ecu calculates you need 2ms to maintain 14:1 at idle. 1ms of fuel and 1ms of dead time. If you change the target fuel to 13:1, the ecu will calculate 1ms of latency and 13/14ths ms of fuel. Now if you were to get 13.5 AFR, you know that your injector lag is incorrect It can then be adjusted and I do so using an excel sheet for the job. I then run the car on no alternator to do the same for 12.5v which allows you to get a two point mean graph and apply a standard model/trend to it for other points. This procedure obviously relies on all other inputs being constant but is a very reliable way of defining dead time.
    Last edited by Jason Broadhurst; 17-05-15 at 04:19 PM.
    Jason Broadhurst

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  7. #67
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Yesterday I took the car for a road tune. This involves an hour or two first in the driveway setting things up like throttle position, MAP calibration, alarm setpoints and idle tuning.

    This is how I tune idle load points.

    Fix the idle valve so that it maintains a specific rpm column, for instance 1000rpm. This will likely get you to 1000rpm column but between two load points.Like all tuning, the closer you can get to a single load cell point, the easier things are. Fixing the idle valve is helpful compared to just setting rpm at closed loop for 1000, as closed loop can also hunt if not tuned.

    Select those two load points and adjust fuel until you obtain the highest amount of vacuum obtainable. While adjusting the fuel, the engine will start to run better or worse for a given amount of air. Adjust the idle valve effort down to 1000rpm again and further adjust the fuel for the load points on the 1000rpm column. Try adding load to the engine so that the load point changes to the higher load cell and tune there. This can be done by turning on the AC, headlights, or steering to hard lock and loading the PSP. Doing this will change your RPM, so adjust the idle to the 1000rpm column again using the forced idle valve effort.

    Continue to adjust the idle valve to maintain all the RPM columns achievable by the idle valve. For instance, the 2JZ idle valve is huge and can idle the motor up to 2500rpm. Tune every load point from 500rpm through to 2500rpm using the same method.

    Once you have done each load cell and rpm column, it always helps to run through them again. During the first pass tuning, the cell you are tuning is still sampling near by cells, which leaves your cell slightly incorrect. The closer the nearby cells are to perfect, the greater the error within the selected cell is. All ecu's have linear interpolation between load cells, so you can see why if you are not at 1000rpm exactly, the incorrect near by cell is inducing error you have to compensate for. If the nearby cell is perfect, the cell you are tuning if left perfect, is also perfect. Continuing to run through each rpm column has diminishing returns, but at least 3 passes will be required to get it perfect.

    Once fuel is done, move to timing tuning for maximum vacuum again in the same manner as fuel.
    Jason Broadhurst

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  8. #68
    Registered User trdee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Broadhurst View Post
    Once you have done each load cell and rpm column, it always helps to run through them again. During the first pass tuning, the cell you are tuning is still sampling near by cells, which leaves your cell slightly incorrect. The closer the nearby cells are to perfect, the greater the error within the selected cell is. All ecu's have linear interpolation between load cells, so you can see why if you are not at 1000rpm exactly, the incorrect near by cell is inducing error you have to compensate for. If the nearby cell is perfect, the cell you are tuning if left perfect, is also perfect. Continuing to run through each rpm column has diminishing returns, but at least 3 passes will be required to get it perfect.
    This is very important to remember when using the autotuning function. If you start from a shitty tune and just leave the car to auto-tune on its own you can end up with a very fucked up fuel map where the ecu has overcompensated for adjacent cells which are far away from their target AFR. You can instruct the ecu to tune adjacent cells, which helps, but I find that going in and manually adjusting a block of cells around the current target cell helps to speed the initial tuning process up significantly whilst also minimising the chance that the ecu runs away and does funny shit with the tune.

  9. #69
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Indeed! You do end up chasing your tail very quickly if you make assumptions on other cells and settings being correct. If you get the cell you are on spot on the AFR you are wanting, and the cell beside is attributing 5% error to that, you have compensated for 5% error so when you fix the adjacent cell, your previous cell will have a ~5% error. That 5% error of the first cell will effect the second cell too, hence the returning of a tuned car can never hurt, but there is diminishing returns.

    VE Explained next
    Jason Broadhurst

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  10. #70
    Registered User trdee's Avatar
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    andy has a shitload of tutorials on youtube which are very helpful also

  11. #71
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    Interesting read, thanks for the thread Jason.

  12. #72
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Cheers for the kind words

    Today, I needed to test and scale the turbo speed in to the ECU.

    The turbo speed is a hall effect sensor which runs some smarts in the plug which does some scaling. The sensor itself being a hall effect sensor outputs a square wave with 5v. as a blade passes, the wave is high. This is then scaled a little by the plug and straight in to VSS4 of the Adaptronic. VSS4 was used for its much higher sample speed, and then the firmware modified a little to instead of displaying VSS4 it will be linked to a turbo speed gauge. VSS 1, 2 and 3 are still retained for front two wheels and gearbox out. As it has a very tight diff(torsion) we assume rear wheels are travelling at close enough speeds to only need the 1 sensor. Fronts will be averaged and compared to rear for TC.

    As it is a known scaling factor through the smarts in the speed sensor plug itself, I can emulate the signal in to the ECU so I can test my logic and ensure readings are the same. To do this, I created a quick arduino program to output a 62.5kHz frequency which represents a known turbo speed. This I can then scale mathematically in the ECU and prove it by watching the read out. The code can be seen in the top of the pic.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The code is bloody simple, just drive high, drive low, repeat. It's running at max MCU speed so 62.5kHz is the fastest I could emulate with this MCU and then any number below this is possible.

    For those unfamiliar with a oscilloscope, i have it set up for 2 volt divisions and 2us divisions. That means that every horizontal dotted line represents 2 volts, and we can see that our on voltage is roughly 2.5 divisions tall which equals 5 volts. Similarly for time, the vertical dotted lines represent 2 microseconds (0.002 milliseconds, 0.000002 seconds) and counting along is approx 8 divisions which is a 16us period for the waveform. 1/period gives frequency which is roughly 62.5kHz
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  13. #73
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    This tested and installed this arvo.

    As you can see, my leet function generator arduino wasn't required in the end. The logic and scaling is something anyone can do, and outputting to a gauge is just as easy.

    Picking an arbitrary max RPM for the turbo of 200000, we can work out the frequency required to emulate that to the Adaptronic. A 12 blade turbo and the hall sensor has some smarts in it which divide pulses by 8, which leaves us with (12*200000)/8 pulses per minute to the ECU. To get that to Hz(pulses per second), we divide by 60. That gives us 5000, or a factor of 1/40th. This 40 number is used in the ECU to display a legible value for the gauge and safety features like boost leak detection.



    Jason Broadhurst

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  14. #74
    \_(ツ)_/ burn is weird's Avatar
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    Nice vids broski, internet is too shit out here to watch more than 5 sec at a time though!. How did you go with max VSS frequency?
    Last edited by burn is weird; 20-05-15 at 08:34 PM.

    Oo___oO


  15. #75
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    It read up to 6kHz, we didn't test any higher. Looking at the block, you can use either speed(Hz) or period(ms). if you use MS you get a resolution down to 0.02 in 0.02 increments. Considering we are about 0.2 at max RPM it was pretty ugly. If you use speed(Hz) you can go up to 6000Hz in 1 hz increments which gives us mint resolution. To be honest you could do a change over from hz to period at low hz, if you were super leet.
    Jason Broadhurst

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  16. #76
    Peddler of wares. th0r's Avatar
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    Nice!

    Haven't read through in detail yet but thanks for sharing.

  17. #77
    \_(ツ)_/ burn is weird's Avatar
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    That's awesome! By my count you only need 3750hz for a 12 bladed wheel at 150000rpm using the 8 divider thingo. Great news.

    Oo___oO


  18. #78
    Registered User I'm DJ!'s Avatar
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    Very cool, I think I want a turbo speedo too just like a modern monster tac
    DJ's don't need sigs

  19. #79
    Opposed to the PFAD Bill
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm DJ! View Post
    Very cool, I think I want a filter tachometer too just like a modern monster tac
    Yep

  20. #80
    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    So the pickup does the complicated bit?
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    Rob Sloth Young did i ask for your opinion? no. i only want it for a paddock bomb. go play with traffic.
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    you stupid fucken imbicle.
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  21. #81
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAIPAN View Post
    So the pickup does the complicated bit?
    The pickup is a hall effect, and then some legacy smarts in the plug for whatever which helped the old controller box out. It divided the signal by eight, which just means we had to multiply by 8 in the ECU.

    The complicated bit is having an input to an ECU capable of 20kHz which is re-programmable to whatever task you want.
    Jason Broadhurst

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  22. #82
    \_(ツ)_/ burn is weird's Avatar
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    So by entering 0.666 ms as period at 1km/h in the vss input settings it should give you turbo rpm (/1000)?

    Aka 1 =1000rpm
    150=150000rpm

    Edit: ignore above. Should be rps not rpm... brain hasn't booted up yet. too early.

    When you say you can see up to 6000hz in 1hz increments, what have you set the vss period setting to for that? And how did you get around the fixed point 655 limit? Sorry if this is shown in video, my internet sucks.
    Last edited by burn is weird; 21-05-15 at 05:40 PM.

    Oo___oO


  23. #83
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Something in your calc is wrong, or maybe I didn't explain it well enough. We ended up with a period of 0.20ms for 200000rpm which is 5000Hz.

    Ignoring the period adjustment in the input window, use the VSS speed output and apply the multiplier. The block outputs a value of kHz, so a 5.00kHz value has a resolution of 0.02kHz, which is a difference of 800rpm on the turbo. Alternatively, you can use period for the calculation which also has a 0.02 resolution but the period is down at 0.2 for where you want to measure, giving you a huge variation from one step of measurement. As you can see, once you have a low rpm and you are using frequency then you start to have problems but then the period is getting quite large.
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  24. #84
    \_(ツ)_/ burn is weird's Avatar
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    Ah I understand what you're doing. You have set for VSS4 in input settings 1ms = 1km/h so your vss value is kHz. Freq is 1.5x revs per second. Due to 12/8.

    60*12/8=40.

    I was doing it in excel to check periods. I selected the rev/min cell instead of rev/s for period calc......

    Move along, nothing to see here......
    Last edited by burn is weird; 21-05-15 at 10:00 AM.

    Oo___oO


  25. #85
    Unregistered User Permit Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Broadhurst View Post
    The pickup is a hall effect, and then some legacy smarts in the plug for whatever which helped the old controller box out. It divided the signal by eight, which just means we had to multiply by 8 in the ECU.
    the "smarts" will probably be a flip-flop based frequency divider, you could make your own with less steps if you want a different division factor.

  26. #86
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Luckily, we don't have to bother because the ECU is so flexible
    Jason Broadhurst

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  27. #87
    Unregistered User Permit Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Have you had any experience with mega-squirt ECUs? a mate just built one and likes it, but if an ECU 3 times the price is 3 times as good i'm probably better off getting one of them.

  28. #88
    Registered User MWP's Avatar
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    Can't beat a Megasquirt3 for the price.
    You would have to need some pretty specific/unusual features to need something like the 1280 over a MS3.

  29. #89
    Unregistered User Permit Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MWP View Post
    Can't beat a Megasquirt3 for the price.
    You would have to need some pretty specific/unusual features to need something like the 1280 over a MS3.
    I'd be looking at the E420D or haltech sprint 500 otherwise, the haltech site isn't giving me the price but based on ebay it looks they are still priced similarly.

  30. #90
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    MS3 are good bits of gear, but you need to have an interest and knowledge in ECU's to have one for your car. I have assembled a few from scratch (not MS3's) and even did a bit of firmware work to get some trick shit happening to soft start a thermo fan and pump.

    I will be accused of being bias but the e420d is miles better an ecu than a sprint 500. You wouldn't be unhappy with a sprint, they are competitive ecu's for very basic duty. If you want some middle spec ecu features, the 420 gets a good look (for the same price anyway).

    I don't know how much the entry level vipec is now days, but consider them too.
    Jason Broadhurst

    Someone once asked me if they could use my mower. I said "sure, so long as it doesn't leave my yard"

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