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Thread: Water/meth injection test, tune and results.

  1. #1
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    Water/meth injection test, tune and results.

    Gday guys,



    Thought I'd throw a post up about my experiment with water and water/meth injection and the results.



    First off, the test bed for this little experiment was my FJ20T powered Datsun 1600. The engine mods are as follows,



    * Engine rebuilt back in 2007 by Stewart Wilkins. Nothing fancy, just forged pistons and a clean up of the inlet and exhaust ports

    * Garrett GT3071r turbo with a twin scroll .78 rear housing

    * Custom split pulse manifold with twin v44 tial waste gates

    * 3" exhaust system with plumb back waste gates

    * Autronic SM4 ecu and CDI 500r

    * FMIC

    * 750cc injectors



    In 2011, I stumble across water injection while surfing the net. After 6 month of further research, which involve speaking with several mechanical engineers, I decided to set up a water injection system on my car. Through my research, I found that the key to a successful system that works and works well is precise control of the injection rate and correct atomisation of the fluid being injected. With this in mind, I decided to go with the Aquamist HFS3 water injection system. This unit was, and still head and shoulders above the competition with regards to build quality, performance and price. Aquamist systems are the only systems that uses constant pump pressure (160 psi) and pulse width modulation to control injection. Other systems use progressive pump speed to control injection. This creates very poor atomisation at less then 50% duty cycle and a delay in the starting and stopping of injection.



    The HFS3 unit was installed using a single, 1mm injection nozzle, located in the inlet pipe just after the intercooler. When the car was tuned with this setup, it made 280rwkw @ 26psi with water injection and 258kw @ 23 psi without water injection. Pump 98 was the base fuel and the ambient air temp was about 30 degrees on the day of testing.



    A few weeks ago, I decided to upgrade my set up to the latest Aquamist HFS4 water injection system. As I wanted to push the water injection system as far as possible this time, as well as experiment with 50:50 water meth mix, I decided to use a total of 6 injection nozzles. A 110cc nozzle was installed in each intake runner. These nozzles incorporate a built in check valve to prevent water been sucked out under vacuum. A 110 cc nozzle was also placed in the inlet piping just after the intercooler and a 50cc nozzle was installed in the intake before the turbo. Aquamist recommends jetting your system for 1-1.5cc/1hp. I was aiming for around 400hp, I went with 1.5 cc/1hp, which required 600cc.



    The install was completed in a day and the car was tuned last Thursday by Yavus at Unigroup engineering. Again, base fuel was pump 98. Air temp was a cool 18 degrees Celsius. The results are as follows:





    267kw @ 22 psi on pump 98

    291kw @ 25 psi on pump 98 + 100% water injection

    312kw @ 30 psi on pump 98 + 50:50 water/meth



    These results were obtained during the same dyno session. No changes to ambient were observed during the testing. It is also interesting to note that a maximum figure of 302 kw was achieved on pump 98 + 100% water injection. Back to back runs at this power level though saw detonation begin to creep in so the timing was reduced. At this point, the option was there to increase the max water flow by upsizing the post intercooler nozzle. This would have required recalibrating the failsafes and was decided against due to the time constraints.



    There is a lot of misinformation circling the internet and club meetings about water injection. I hope this test has demonstrated that when a quality system is set up correctly, it works extremely well. This set up me cost around $2500 to purchase, install and tune and netted a 16% power gain. That is an absolute bargain in my opinion and an option well worth considering for those looking for a healthy performance gain from their boosted rides.

    Big thanks to Jeff from howertonengineering.com, Richard from Aquamist, Peter rice racing and last but not least Yavuz and the guys from unigroup engineering.

    Please feel free to post any questions you make have and I'll do my best to answer them.



    Cheers.




  2. #2
    Registered User Mc Juicy Hairy Balls's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time mate. Might fit a bit of this if the v12 needs a bit moe pep

  3. #3
    no mods, leave it stock Jack Nicholson's Avatar
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    Where's the like button on this forum?!?!?

    Thanks for sharing mate, good info there.
    Jaguar XJR, Freelander 2 HSE, Jaguar XKR

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    Excellent post, thanks.

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    Opinionated Cunt perthdrivers.txt's Avatar
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    Good info, though if i were to do my car again i would go just E85 instead of 98+water/meth, a lot simpler and easier to tune

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    Registered User mr2mark's Avatar
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    Thanks for the information.
    I got somewhat similar results with a 3sgte albeit with a little less boost on a gt3076. Good to remember you get gains not just at peak power but from on-boost upwards.
    I didnt have much time on the dyno which was cut shorter by exploding tyres so I only ever went with 50/50. Its really nice to see some back to back test numbers.

    Mine was just one of the cheapy ~$300 kits but the hobbs switch I dont trust anymore and the 50/50 meth has killed the seals out of the cheap quik-connect type fittings and they leak.
    When I get around to it Ill replace the fitting and lines and use an ecu output to trigger instead of the hobbs switch.

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    http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6xqdibsw.jpg

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    http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/...psneolsd0z.jpg

    520nm. Not bad for a 2 litre.

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    Registered User TRD-MX62's Avatar
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    Would be interested to see an ignition map of E85 vs 98 + 100% water...

    I got a 12c intake air temp drop with just water pre supercharger intake on the supercharged 1UZ but would never tune to the limit of water injection too much risk of shit going wrong without flow monitoring the water.

  13. #13
    Boldy going nowhere rolin7's Avatar
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    This setup has boost level switching based off fail safes. 1 float level gauge in the tank in the back, plus a flow sensor incorporated into the fast acting valve. I believe it will detect for to much water flowing (I.e. Broken line etc) or lack of water flow, it's my understanding it can trigger a fail safe event that talks back to the ecu to limit boost.

    Potential to do map switching with that feature as well obviously

  14. #14
    Purist, whats that? Jason Broadhurst's Avatar
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    Awesome info, nice work!
    Jason Broadhurst

    Someone once asked me if they could use my mower. I said "sure, so long as it doesn't leave my yard"

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    Cheers guys. The back to back testing of water and water meth is something I've have wanted to do for a while. Glad I was finally able to get it done.

    With regards to safety, the aquamist hfs4 comes with built-in failsafes as rolin7 already explained. There is also an auxiliary input form an external sensor such as air temp or o2 sensor which can be configured to trigger the failsafe.

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    Arrogant wankeler Slides's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting.

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    https://youtu.be/91A22iYLZzs

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    Problem? sssgtr's Avatar
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    Good info - however, playing devil's advocate, can't help to think the $2500 would've been better spent on setting up e85 and a much newer ecu (like the elite 1500 / g4+ fury / infinity -6) for similar, if not greater gains and engine protection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sssgtr View Post
    Good info - however, playing devil's advocate, can't help to think the $2500 would've been better spent on setting up e85 and a much newer ecu (like the elite 1500 / g4+ fury / infinity -6) for similar, if not greater gains and engine protection?
    It has an autistic sm4. More than good enough if you're one of the three people in the world who can understand and tune it/set half that shit up.

    Ethanol is a pipe dream in this country, way of the dodo soon.
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    If your planing to drive this on the road and enjoy it, id suggest a second opinion, someone with a history in Australian Rally or Fink River . If your just playing dyno comps. Then ok

  20. #20
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    cracks, you're spot on.

    sssgtr, I did look in going with e85 but decided against it for reasons which I'll explain. If I was to do as you suggested, $2500 wouldn't cover the cosy for a good ECU let alone the hardware required to run e85.

    Here is a cost breakdown if I was to go this route:



    Haltech Elite 1500 - $2200 with loom

    4x1600 cc Injectors for e85 - $1250

    New fuel tank, pumps, lines and fittings for e85 - $3000

    To set up and tune all of this - $1500+



    That's a grand total of $7950. Assuming I made the same power with this set up, it would have cost me $180/kw compared to my water injection system which cost $58/kw. Even if I kept my current ECU (which is a top of the range Autronic SM4 even by todays standards) and drop the price of the tune to $500, an e85 set up still comes in at $4750.

    Set up cost aside, reasons I went water injection over e85 for my set up are as follows:



    e85 is not readily available. I have never seen it at any of the service stations I have been to in Sydney

    fuel consumption increases 30-40% using e85 (I don't need the knock suppression e85 offers when I'm idling or cruising yet I'd still be paying for it)

    No e85 = no power increase

    Yes, flex fuel sensors are great, but once you start mixing your fuel, how do you know your exact power output?

    E85 absorbs water over time and is highly corrosive.

    Water injection system can be turned off when not required (I will not be using this function!)

    Similar power gains can be had with water injection as with e85

    A good quality water injection system like mine is simple to set up and tune. 1 day for an amateur like me to install. 2.5 hours set up tune which includes separate water and water meth maps.



    To sum this up, both capital expenditure and operational expenditure are higher for an e85 set up than a water injection set up. This coupled with the draw backs of e85, some of which I have mentioned above, made e85 unsuitable for my application.


  21. #21
    More boost - less license Gareth87's Avatar
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    Great findings and well written. We should have a section for write ups in a forum like this for people looking to benefit from the experience you have provided.

    I think we have spoken several times on the FJ face book page, but I have done a similar write up on the conversion to E85 for my FJ20. Unfortunately, as you have listed, bolting in a set of injectors and bigger fuel pump is far from what is needed to make the switch..
    Sounds like a great option for those of you who can't find readily available E85.
    Nissan Bluebird powered by FJ20ET - Tuned by Matt Spry at P.I.T.S on E85 making 485hp @ 22psi

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  22. #22
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    Thanks Gareth87. I was also going to go the e85 route until I came across water injection. I thought long and hard about my application and decided that water injection was better suited.
    How did you go with your e85 setup?

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  24. #24
    Boldy going nowhere rolin7's Avatar
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    Bosch now appears to be releasing a water injection kit for cars, looks promising. BMW are reportedly looking to use it on production platforms.

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    Dreamer millsi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRD-MX62 View Post
    Would be interested to see an ignition map of E85 vs 98 + 100% water...

    I got a 12c intake air temp drop with just water pre supercharger intake on the supercharged 1UZ but would never tune to the limit of water injection too much risk of shit going wrong without flow monitoring the water.
    I've got a snow performance kit on my shit box. Had it put on when on 98 and still using it with e85.
    Who knows if it's doing much anymore but I'm not going to remove it.
    Nope

  26. #26
    Registered User AlexinPerth's Avatar
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    What's the water consumption like with these kits - how long between tank fills?

  27. #27
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    ^^Dunno about on the street. The WRC cars a few years ago, when water injection was permitted were burning through 2.5 litres/km at one extreme, a mate carries roughly 30 litres for a more mundane circuit based application.

    Interesting thread!

  28. #28
    Boldy going nowhere rolin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexinPerth View Post
    What's the water consumption like with these kits - how long between tank fills?
    On a weekend warrior garage ornament, you would go months without refilling.

    On the BMW youtube video from memory they estimate around 3000kms of driving roughly before requiring a refill. Important to remember for the setup on the datsun it only comes into play at a certain RPM range, so at cruise and low throttle you aren't using it, therefore in the real world it's a long time between refills.

    I recall reading an article where BMW were planning on using the water generated from the Air con system to cycle back into the water tank, which would extend the range. It's a great technology, and now that the proper systems with failsafes are becoming more main stream it will start to get popular.
    Pain is temporary, quitting is forever - Lance Armstrong (drug cheat)

  29. #29
    Registered User AlexinPerth's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter - just checked the regs for production rally cars, and it's not legal.

    3.1.2 Induction
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    The fitment of any other substance or device to reduce the temperature of the charge is forbidden.

  30. #30
    I'm Johnny Hotfuck Greasystick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gxxr View Post
    ^^Dunno about on the street. The WRC cars a few years ago, when water injection was permitted were burning through 2.5 litres/km at one extreme
    Some of that was also used to spray water mist on the intercoolers.

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