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Thread: Water/meth injection test, tune and results.

  1. #31
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    G’day guy,

    recently installed a new ECU and had to have to car retuned. While setting up and testing the testing the WMI system, it was realized that two of the direct port nozzles had a non uniform spray pattern. The car hadn’t been used in over 12 months so decided to pull the jets apart and give them a clean. This did not go as planned and the end result was further degradation to the spray pattern, making the jets unserviceable. As this was the morning of the dyno, a different approach was needed quickly due to the lost two of the direct port jets. Going through the spare parts box unearthed the jets from the previous HFS3 kit. So it was decided to plumbed a 1mm and a 0.8mm jet post intercooler and a 0.4mm jet pre turbo and plugged the direct port holes. Total flow capacity at 30 psi boost was now 830cc. On the dyno, the car made 370hp @ 24psi without WMI and 455hp @ 31psi and 6 degrees extra timing with WMI. That is a peak difference of 85hp but in the at 5000rpm, the difference is 125hp. It should be noted that the latest dyno tuning was conducted on a hub dyno, while the ones previous were done on a chassis dyno.

    So what does the future hold? Well the plan is to get some new, larger direct port and post intercooler jets to increase to the water meth to 50% of fuel. Currently running 750cc injectors with a max duty cycle of 80%, 2400cc. So that will be around 1200cc of water meth. There is also room to bring the WMI on a lot sooner which will be looked at. Thanks for reading my rant and please feel free to add any advice or criticism.

    UPDATEExperimenting and tuning with more water meth flow)

    For this tune, the aim was to optimise the tune in the lower RPM range and increase the total power output by increasing the water meth flow to around 50% of total fuel flow. This equated to roughly 1250cc/min. The system was set up to use a total of 4 jets, 3 in the charge pipe post intercooler and 1 pre turbo.
    Tuning saw us achieve some great gains in the lower and mid range RPM, as you can see from the before and after dyno pictures below. But with the water meth activated, we soon realized that this configuration was not yielding the results we were after, with a 16kw decrease over our last peak numbers.
    At this point, we took a set back and sat down with the Unigroup Engineering crew to investigate the possible causes of the drop in power and a way ahead. In the end it came down to the fact the we were injecting too much water meth in a localised area, as we had over 1100cc/min being injected at one area post intercooler. This caused the air to reached and exceeded 100% saturation point, meaning the amount of air entering the engine could no longer suspend the liquid being injected in an atomised form. This causes overcooling of the combustion process due to poor atomisation, leading to a loss in power, which is exactly what we were experiencing.
    It was decided that we would remove one of the three charge pipe jets which would reduce the post intercooler injection to around 800cc/min. This resulted in an 11kw in in power and a much nicer power curve right through the rev range. That said, we were still 5kw off our previous peak of 336kw. We decided to leave it there for now, as we will be making some changes in the near future, which we will expand on shortly.
    During the tuning process, we paid close attention to the EGTs, via the thermocouples fitted to the exhaust manifold. A significant temperature drop in EGTs was noticed when water meth was activated, as was the fact that cylinder number 2 was running quite a bit hotter than the rest. Some individual cylinder fuel adjustment was used to quickly solve this issue.
    During a recent outing to Sydney’s roll racing, we did some data logging. The ambient temp on the day was up around the 38-degree mark. In the waiting lanes, air intake temp reached 50+ degrees. At the end of each run, air intake temps were down to 40 degrees.
    In the next instalment, we will be maintaining the current flow rate but making the switch back to direct port water meth injection. This will be done using 1x140cc/min jet in each inlet runner, 1x250cc/min jet post intercooler piping and 1x150cc/min jet pre turbo. The reason for making the switch is for better atomisation, less chance of saturation and a more equal distribution of the water meth. We are hopeful that with this change and some more fine tuning, we will be able to achieve 350rwkw. Only time will tell so stay tuned. Please feel free to add to the discussion by leaving any questions or feedback you may have. The links below are some videos of the car at Sydneys Roll Racing events. Cheers

    https://youtu.be/mDHA5L54B6A

    https://youtu.be/aXkfvyRhUyQ






    (Hub dyno figures.)


    (Most recent chassis dyno figures.)

  2. #32
    2jz crank bolt ftl pH@tTm@N's Avatar
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    nice! great info thanks.
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  3. #33
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    Thanks for the info. I thought it was not a good idea to put any WI before the intercooler? Intercoolers work by exploiting the difference in charge air and ambient air temps, and by adding water before the IC this temp difference will be lower. So I thought it was always the way to go to add all the water after the intercooler? Can you please explain your reasoning on adding some water before the intercooler? I know it was only a small fraction of your total water.

    There was a massive write up somewhere where someone tried a whole heap of water injection locations and at some point it made the intercooler totally ineffective when the water was injected before it.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 29-03-17 at 06:39 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Thanks for the info. I thought it was not a good idea to put any WI before the intercooler? Intercoolers work by exploiting the difference in charge air and ambient air temps, and by adding water before the IC this temp difference will be lower. So I thought it was always the way to go to add all the water after the intercooler? Can you please explain your reasoning on adding some water before the intercooler? I know it was only a small fraction of your total water.

    There was a massive write up somewhere where someone tried a whole heap of water injection locations and at some point it made the intercooler totally ineffective when the water was injected before it.
    I totally agree that pre intercooler water meth injection greatly reduces the efficiency of the intercooler. My current water meth injection points are pre turbo and post intercooler. The pre turbo injection, due to the mount i am injecting, does not affect the intercooler efficiency. It is used to improve the efficiency of the turbo. If you can cool the air as it is being compressed, it increases the mass flow of the turbo.

  5. #35
    2jz crank bolt ftl pH@tTm@N's Avatar
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    I dont know, sounds a bit h20 and meth to me
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  6. #36
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    G’day guys,

    Thought we’d post a quick update to cover off on all the changes we have made over the past few months. We have now upgraded to gen 2 Garrett gtx3071r, Bosch motorsport 1550cc fuel injectors and an in tank Walbro 460 fuel pump. We also made the switch back to direct port water meth injection, using 4x0.6mm direct port check valve jets, along with 2x0.5mm post intercooler jets and 1x0.4 pre turbo jet.

    On the Unigroup Engineering dyno last Thursday, with ambient air temps reaching 36+ degrees, the car made 277kw/371hp @22 psi without water meth injection. With the water meth on (using a 80/20 methanol/water mix), it made 352kw/471hp @ 30psi and 388kw/520hp @ 35psi. At this point, we reached the knock limit of the engine due to maxing out the flow of the water meth system. We will upgrade this system early in the New Year in a bid to squeeze a little more from this setup.

    Cheers

    P.S Can anyone recommend a good hosting site? Many thanks in advance.
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  7. #37
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  8. #38
    Nay sayer Mr Ed's Avatar
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    You can host the pics directly on PF. Edit your posts and goto Manage Attachments. That will only work for PF posts though, so if writing this up for multiple forums youre probably best using Imgur

    Thanks for the info and congrats on the results
    Last edited by Mr Ed; 21-12-17 at 07:43 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Ed View Post
    You can host the pics directly on PF. Edit your posts and goto Manage Attachments. That will only work for PF posts though, so if writing this up for multiple forums youre probably best using Imgur

    Thanks for the info and congrats on the results
    Thanks mate, much appreciated. I'll edit my post now with some pics.

  10. #40
    infantile egomaniac CussCuss's Avatar
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    Great info! Thanks.

    Definitely agree about the Water/Meth vs E85, even if water/meth was only 2/3 as good as E85, it has a lot less drawbacks than E85, it just seems like its too hit or miss with E85 experiences.
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  11. #41
    Arrogant wankeler Slides's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing. Solid power.

  12. #42
    Registered User SR20 KE30's Avatar
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    They are really good results, it definitely makes sense of you have no e85 in your area.

    I can't see the drawbacks of e85, go to the servo put fuel in car, drive car?

    Vs pumps, water bottles, squirty nossles, a whole setup that is additional to what is required with e85. Mixing buying and filling with additional fuels. Plus the danger of blockages or nozzle deterioration resulting in epic engine failure.

  13. #43
    Registered User Tyrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR20 KE30 View Post
    They are really good results, it definitely makes sense of you have no e85 in your area.

    I can't see the drawbacks of e85, go to the servo put fuel in car, drive car?

    Vs pumps, water bottles, squirty nossles, a whole setup that is additional to what is required with e85. Mixing buying and filling with additional fuels. Plus the danger of blockages or nozzle deterioration resulting in epic engine failure.
    This. Now you need E85+water/meth.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SR20 KE30 View Post
    They are really good results, it definitely makes sense of you have no e85 in your area.

    I can't see the drawbacks of e85, go to the servo put fuel in car, drive car?

    Vs pumps, water bottles, squirty nossles, a whole setup that is additional to what is required with e85. Mixing buying and filling with additional fuels. Plus the danger of blockages or nozzle deterioration resulting in epic engine failure.
    The 2 biggest draw backs of e85, in our opinion, is availability, or last there of and fuel economy. Where these 2 pose no issue, we totally see the appeal of e85 and the results of those using it speak for themselves. In fact, we have recently upgraded our fuel system to be e85 capable. The plan is to conduct a back to back test of e85 and water meth injection and also a combination of the 2. We'll post the results once completed.

  15. #45
    Registered User Ke26 Wagon's Avatar
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    Some great info in here.

    One thing I noticed is that your back to back test between say pump with and without water there was a change in the boost. Is this because the water is helping produce more boost or you upped the boost.

    Also looking for DIY setup if there is other options

  16. #46
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    Tuner would have increased boost as it was now safe to do so. Adding water+meth shouldn't change boost.

  17. #47
    Arrogant wankeler Slides's Avatar
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    If you are happy to fab a tank and fit lines youself you can make a pre-turbo/blower air atomiser cheap. Lot of guys using them. Alcohol mixes will make more power for boost and get a touch more air through the compressor if it is choked (undersized for engine) but for most people in Aus using it to stabilize combustion and run heaps more boost water is fine. I will probably run 10% metho by volume just as antifreeze.

    Look up the spray systems website, they have flow ratings vs pressure for their atomisers, a lot of people using them.

    If you want level sensing in the tank for reducing boost/chsnging the tune look up optical level sensors. I think you should be able to get them from RSonline or element 14 etc.
    Last edited by Slides; 22-01-18 at 04:48 PM.

  18. #48
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    AEM do a nice water injection flow meter gauge thing that apparently works well
    Quote Originally Posted by ALLMTR View Post
    the theory is the fuel pump is one of the only things that can fuck out on a diesel

  19. #49
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    How have I not seen this thread earlier...I'm a big fan of WI and even the latest POV version I quickly fitted to the SC'd LS made a HUGE difference...under $100, but still very effective.. I'll post some numbers once the thing is dyno'd with the last little niggles sorted.
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  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJT1600 View Post
    In fact, we have recently upgraded our fuel system to be e85 capable. The plan is to conduct a back to back test of e85 and water meth injection and also a combination of the 2. We'll post the results once completed.
    Would be interested in seeing the results of this (E85 vs E85 plus water/meth kit) as i've been looking at this recently myself, for a car already on E85.

    A couple of fair tests i've thought about would be ensuring same boost, ignition timing & injector duty cycle - if any power can be extracted with the inclusion of water/met kit only.

    Then what can then be added boost and timing wise with water/meth. Knock values on each combo if available would be decent as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SR20 KE30 View Post
    They are really good results, it definitely makes sense of you have no e85 in your area.

    I can't see the drawbacks of e85, go to the servo put fuel in car, drive car?

    Vs pumps, water bottles, squirty nossles, a whole setup that is additional to what is required with e85. Mixing buying and filling with additional fuels. Plus the danger of blockages or nozzle deterioration resulting in epic engine failure.
    However i always come back to the above thoughts. Searching US LSx forums on water/meth and survivability rates on stock engined LS turbo combos there is a definite theme of failed WI systems leading to broken pistons. Really are putting a lot of faith in the system to function flawlessly if tuning right out there.

  21. #51
    Boldy going nowhere rolin7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psi999 View Post

    However i always come back to the above thoughts. Searching US LSx forums on water/meth and survivability rates on stock engined LS turbo combos there is a definite theme of failed WI systems leading to broken pistons. Really are putting a lot of faith in the system to function flawlessly if tuning right out there.
    Don't use the US based forums as a good test bed for failed engines with water/meth, those guys mainly use shitty snow performance or AEM systems which just aren't even in the same league as Aquamist, especially in regards to built in fail safes and water delivery.

    Next time you are down Jon, I'll get Orlando to show you his system and explain it directly, you'll soon understand why.
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