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Thread: draw through carb turbo Mazda FE 2.0

  1. #1
    I <3 Mang. klampykixx's Avatar
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    Turbocharged carby fed Mazda FE 2.0 E2000

    Hi forum, just trying to learn about the ins and outs of draw through turbo carb tuning, specifically the carb side of it

    I have a ford econovan (mazda E2000) with the FE motor SOHC i think 8valve ?

    the plan is this:
    using the stock nikki carb, at the front of a TB25 Garrett turbo, crossing over into the stock intake and running 10psi.

    Ive already sussed out the physical parts, ie manifold, dump pipe, oil feeds/return, wideband o2, and a custom vacuum advance canister that will also handle boost retard.


    my main question, how likely is the stock nikki going to be able to keep up fuel wise with 10psi being drawn through it? i understand that carbs deliver based on air flow, so in theory if theres more air flowing that there should be more fuel flowing.

    im guessing im just gonna have to watch the o2 gauge and progressively give it more boost until it cant keep up with the fuel.

    thoughts?
    Last edited by klampykixx; 15-07-16 at 08:46 PM.

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    Hmmm old school

    I don't know much about 'normal' carbies, I grew up with Minis and SU carbs, but I'm sure you will run out of fuel very early in the piece - by 4 psi ?

    The other thing I worry about is whether the Turbo will have the correct oil seal on the cold side to deal with operating under vacuum when the throttle is shut.

    A wide band 02 gauge? sheer bloody luxury, go your hardest, good luck.

  3. #3
    Registered User egads's Avatar
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    Blow through is same sized carb and different jets, draw through needs bigger carbs to get more than stock amount of flow although you will get your peak flow earlier. Not enough of an expert though really, any old mazda or torana dudes around?

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    Welcome back.

    I know nothing about that carburettor but the higher depression pulled across it due to increased airflow will pull more fuel, until something in the fuel passage becomes a restriction.

    If it were me, id be trying to find a carburettor that is sized for an engine of approximately the boosted hp you will end up at and tune off boost from that.

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    arboreal bukkake briney's Avatar
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    surely there's a better way? draw through can be made to work. it's still a compromise and a bit shit sometimes. this engine had a later version which was efi. otherwise, why not blow through a 350 holley or something? at least you could use an intercooler.
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    VW Service Bloke Sloth's Avatar
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    pull through a hs6 carb. job jobbed.

  7. #7
    Compulsive modifier awdmoke's Avatar
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    Rather than go to the trouble of creating a suck through system from scratch, why not scavenge a Telstar or 929 EFI Turbo and chuck the 2L FET gear into your van?
    Lots of minis & mokes including a G13b powered Sports Sedan, a couple of Swift Gtis, a Goggomobil, Porsche 928S, Polo Gti, BMW 540i, a WRX and a few others.

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    Hungry Hungry Hippo Tripper's Avatar
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    Read thru Jmacs posts about carby turbos. A lot of info in them, sure they are mostly a red 6 but the info will be valid regardless of what engine and what carby etc
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    I <3 Mang. klampykixx's Avatar
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    thanks guys, ill continue to research the pros and cons of the setups, i was trying to steer away from injection for the lack of tuning ability on my part, where id be able to assess and adjust a carb. draw thru seems to have the benefit of the fuel cooling the charge significantly vs the extra lag of intercooling.

    still got plenty of time to read and learn. the only thing i have purchased so far is the turbo itself, which i swapped another item for. and ill get garrett to rebuild it for me with a carbon seal for the fuel factor.

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    I <3 Mang. klampykixx's Avatar
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    Registered User MartyRX2's Avatar
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    draw through carb turbo Mazda FE 2.0

    The stock carb will be a restriction once it comes on boost. Back in the 90s a mate had a Datsun 180B with an L18 that had a suck through turbo setup. Was quite successful in rally cross. He was running a side draft weber 45 from memory on avgas, decomp plate under the head and about 25psi.


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    Last edited by MartyRX2; 16-01-16 at 02:46 PM.

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    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    You wouldn't wreck such a mint van, find a hump to do it to.
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  13. #13
    dangerous fugitive
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    forget the niki for more reasons than I can be bothered typing . AT 10psi you'll need a carb that will approximately adequately feed a 3.5 litre engine if it were NA. You can run an SU, I'd suggest at least a single 1 3/4 or even a 2inch if you can find one (getting harder). But for the easiest possible setup, run the fisher price of carbs - a holley. Due to prices, the best bet would likely be a 500 2 barrel. (remembering that holley 2 and 4 barrel carbs are flow rated at different pressure drops so a 500 2 barrel actually flows about 350cfm on the 4 barrel test pressure scale). You'll likely find that the turbo will draw hard enough on the carb at full noise that it will pull the power valve closed again, so it'll go rich when it opens at full throttle, then close perhaps around 3-4psi or so an lean out 'mysteriously'. There's two options here. You can run a powervalve blanking plug which will cut out it's operation alltogether, and then jet richer. This will of course be way rich off boost, but depending on requirements/application may be satisfactory (and will be consistent) the other option is to fill the power valve port at the base of the carb with lead, then drill in from the front and press in a thinwall tube. you then route a hose from this to teh intake manifold AFTER the turbo somewhere (preferably well after). This will see vac (though often reduced vac signal due to sheer intake tract volume so be warned a low opening setting power valve may be required) at part throttle and boost under boost, so it will then open the power valve and keep it open until you back off the throttle.

    That works well but be aware the power valve will eventually rupture under boost for extended periods, so pre-emptively replace it every 6-12 months and happy days.

    A word of caution about 2nd hand 2 barrel holleys. They only have 'half' a carb under the air cleaner base section so often teh air filter nut is tightened an it warps the main body and never seals properly again. Be wary of any ebay ones that have 'artistic' camera angles to conceal this and generally only go for one you can inspect in person. If it's warped, it's worthless imo. Secondly, they can get shit in their metering bodies that clogs idle and or emulsion passages (often randomly as the shit can move) so be sure and set the thing up to a preliminary level on some naturally aspirated engine (find someone with a hemi or a holden 6) to get a baseline and to ensure that it will actually produce a smooth idle on such an engine. THere's nothing like the frustration of toiling with a drawthrough carb struggling to get an idle chasing your tail only to find out it's not an idiosynchrasy of your turbo install, but something randomly going wrong with teh carb due to debris in their. To that end, my experience is that re-usable metering block and fuel bowl gaskets are really worth it. Apart from ebing able to be re-used mulitple times for jet changes etc, when you do take em apart you don't get flakes/crumbs of the paper gaskets falling into orifices un-noticed..

    I'd personally be a little more inclined to still recurve teh distributor to limit total mech advance a little. Although boost retard is good, a mechanically altered dizzy only has one disadvantage - it'll have less than ideal timing in one situation (with regular vac advance still attached) and that is the transition from part throttle, where you have just enough throttle to have zero manifold vac but still not enough to produce meaningful boost. In practice that's a fairly rare situation unless you have very very long hills that you cruise up at around 80km/h or something. Having said that there's nothing 'wrong' with your approach, just ensure that the boost retard actually allows sufficient retard. At 10psi, you're probably going to want to look at around 6-8 deg less than standard, maybe a little more than that (I'm not sure what the standard engines compression ratio is and whether or not you intended to run std unleaded or high octane, but I am assuming you are not going to drop the comp ratio over whatever it is standard at any rate.)
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    Bam. A whole lotta jmac goodness right there. Good to read your stuff again, John.
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    needs boost... morerevsm3's Avatar
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    blow through throttle body, and SU carb in draw through with butterfly removed negates the need for carbon seals in the turbo
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    ^^^^ This. Chop the throttle closed and I'd imagine a bunch of fuel/air mix either pours out the BOV, or back through the turbo into the airbox.

    Apart from that, I like the idea. Guessing cheap ass motorcycle CV carbs would work as well if no SU's to be found - anything with a needle to meter fuel and a slide raising it up and down with airflow.
    Last edited by Greasystick; 09-06-16 at 04:14 PM.

  17. #17
    I <3 Mang. klampykixx's Avatar
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    thanks for the input guys, Jmac, that was very informative thankyou.

    i scored a holley 5200 carb its essentially a licensed copy of the webber 32/36 and picked it up pretty cheap($50), just had a full rebuild and jetted to suit a "hot 2L" was the previous owners comment. claims it will flow enough fuel to run a 3L motor.

    ill be keeping stock compression, its around 8.7:1 or so, pretty low. and i will only be running 98octane, as i already do. with the stock 10psi from the tb25 i have.

    im getting closer to starting the project, already picked up an old 929 manifold, just needs a turbo flange change and it will bolt up. Ive sussed out SR20 dump pipes, and am leaning towards running a screamer pipe, just because i can. since its the only turbo noise it will make besides a whistle as no BOV will be used for Greasystick's reason.

    regarding the dizzy, i found a company in QLD who can help me with the vacuum/boost actuator, so hopefully i dont have to change the mechanical advance. ive been advised to keep it if possible.


    if theres any further tips you could pass before i dig in, it would be appreciated thanks

  18. #18
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigmuz View Post
    You wouldn't wreck such a mint van, find a hump to do it to.
    Should offer to paint it for him, will be a museum piece by the time you're done with it.

    In all seriousness, aren't the Mazda MX6 turbos a boosted and injected version of the FE? If so surely the manifolds off that would be the ticket to making the conversion much more awesome and less likely to explode in a fireball.
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    Registered User E-Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post
    Should offer to paint it for him, will be a museum piece by the time you're done with it.

    In all seriousness, aren't the Mazda MX6 turbos a boosted and injected version of the FE? If so surely the manifolds off that would be the ticket to making the conversion much more awesome and less likely to explode in a fireball.
    Yep efi and all.
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    Registered User ls400x's Avatar
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    I've done a blow through Nikki on a NA/MA/VC Mazda engine. It worked OK. We also tried a Webber too, also worked OK. Not easy or what I'd describe as good. Having said that I hope you post up a detailed build because it will be interesting to see it's development.

    I think you can buy black boxes from MSD or Holley that retard the ignition timing proportionally to positive manifold pressure if you didn't want to mod the distributor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post
    Should offer to paint it for him, will be a museum piece by the time you're done with it.

    In all seriousness, aren't the Mazda MX6 turbos a boosted and injected version of the FE? If so surely the manifolds off that would be the ticket to making the conversion much more awesome and less likely to explode in a fireball.
    even the later versions of the econovan had an efi fe in them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skompa View Post
    The throttle linkages jammed on the CDs in my old Triumph 2000 and stuck it at WOT.

    I didn't realise for about 15 mins as it never broke the speed limit.

  22. #22
    I <3 Mang. klampykixx's Avatar
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    didnt want to go efi due to needing a dyno tuner and an aftermarket engine management setup to run it. At least i can have a crack at it myself with the carb. also, no carb mods required as its draw through, not blow through. if its a bit lean up top, up the jets. etc.

    chats to the company who do the dizzy actuator give much confidence to stick with the mechanical setup.


    Sketchy, the 626 ran a twin cam head, and also the 12 valve version of the single cam, both of which have different port spacing to my 8v head, so its only the earlier 929 that i can utilise parts from and i believe they're fwd so the intake is different enough to not fit under my "bonnet" (purely based on pics on the internets) but i do already have the exhaust manifold from the 929, it will bolt on, just needs a minor turbo flange changed.

    i was going to see about having my carb intake manifold opened up where the carb would normally sit and just have an oval pipe/flange setup bolted on, so the crossover pipe can be as short and simple as possible. it will also have to be ovalled where it runs over the top of the rocker cover to ensure clearance to the bonnet.

    ill be beginning the saving of money in a few weeks to have the turbo carbon sealed/rebuilt and once i have that i can start to bolt it all together.


    Parts i have:

    Turbo (needs rebuild) TB25 from a 2.8TD patrol
    Manifold ( needs new turbo flange)
    Carb (holley 5400)

    parts i need:

    manifold for carb
    crossover pipe
    dump pipe
    oil setup for turbo
    wideband o2
    pyrometer (to aid tuning)
    dizzy vacuum actuator

    maybe up sizing to 3" exhaust, currently 2.5"

  23. #23
    I <3 Mang. klampykixx's Avatar
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    Another question,
    Is it likely I'll have to step up to an electric fuel pump or will the stock mechanical pump theoretically handle the flow requirement?

  24. #24
    Down with ma homies Greg Rust's Avatar
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    If you end up using a Holley Blue or similar electric fuel pump you will need to boost reference the regulator diaphragm by drilling a hole through the centre of the adjustment screw and welding a hosetail fitting on there.
    xw Falcon 393 full race cam, NGK spark plugs.

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    Registered User glenn's Avatar
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    All 929's are RWD If you could find a HB 929 with the FE Turbo you could use that setup. Even a non turbo 929 efi manifold would be better than any carby and you could eBay a cheap fuel only ecu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by morerevsm3 View Post
    blow through throttle body, and SU carb in draw through with butterfly removed negates the need for carbon seals in the turbo
    Is this something people have actually done or just an idea?

  27. #27
    needs boost... morerevsm3's Avatar
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    My sons ke55 corolla is like this

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    Registered User ls400x's Avatar
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    Interesting!

  29. #29
    needs boost... morerevsm3's Avatar
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    made 82rwkw @5600rpm with the pair of little carbs, power was climbing at 45* then massive lean out as carbs too small, going to replace with a 2" single SU and go to E85, will easily go over 100rwkw, so not bad for an old stock tired 4k





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  30. #30
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    That's very cool, budget hp and engineering.

    Klampy, if the manifolds and turbo gear won't fit your existing engine why not just transplant the whole lot. Use factory loom and ecu to ensure it runs as per standard and then start modifying from there. You may find you can use a lot of the existing plumbing like dump and intake to save cash as well.

    Bit of a hike from Coffs but this guy is selling three 626/mx6 turbos for $1400 neg. Offer him $500 for the mx6 turbo, put it on a truck and pillage it for everything you need.

    http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/clint...ars/1117372504





    Even has a dirty big front mount with piping to get you started, may have other stuff too.
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