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Thread: Warn 8274 experts, CONVERGE!

  1. #1
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    Warn 8274 experts, CONVERGE!

    Any experts on upgraded high mount winches here? I've got an 8274 with the 6hp warn 9.5XP motor on it and I'm not quite happy with it for speed under load, not looking for a whole heap more, just another maybe 25% faster when it's around 3/4s load. I figure it's no good just going faster gearing from gigglepin, because it won't have the power to pull it that much faster, so I'm toying with either a bowmotor3 or going the cheaper 'adventure series' twin motor top housing and probably a second XP motor.

    Other complicating factor is I'm eyeing off the deltatek +76mm air freespool drum, and given it runs a smaller minor diameter on the drum, I figure I lose some speed there. But not sure where I'd end up given the second motor and the +25% gearing which comes in the adventure series top housing.

    Experiences? thoughts?
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

  2. #2
    Big Block Ford 545 cubes! XEFalconUte's Avatar
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    First question first, are you down to the first layer of rope on the drum when you start winching? Hi-mounts are shit, slow inefficient pigs under heavy load also.
    Quote Originally Posted by RotaUte View Post
    I take it you're a PF member by the gay sarcastic comment that I'm sure you thought
    was funny after 2 beers, but it was lamer than possibly recordable.

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    Er... I'm not really here for a winch lesson... would vary hugely between circumstances, I've got 45m of rope on the drum and carry another 30 as an extension and depending on terrain and location. Pretty unusual not to have at least 30m out but given that it'll be different between pretty much every use of the winch, I'm not sure how your question relates to mine?
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

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    Big Block Ford 545 cubes! XEFalconUte's Avatar
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    Firstly cut down the amount of rope on the drum to about 25m, you'll be more inclined to spool out to the bottom layer, that's faster.

    The high mount will spool in twice as fast at 4000lb as it does at 8000lb, so putting a snatch block in the rigging will see you winching just at fast at big load. But there's a kicker, the high mount burns 480amps at 8000lb and 290amps at 4000lb doing the same amount of work. The extra 190amps will mostly be lost to heat.

    This leads to a much increased duty cycle with the snatch block than without, it won't overheat and you won't have to wait while the alternator catches nearly as much under prolonged winching. So while the car won't be heading toward the anchor point any faster, you be able to winch for a lot longer, so the overall time of the winching will be a lot less.

    The high mount is a victim of it's gearing under high load. This will easily get a 25% increase in high load recoveries. And you can't beat the price!
    Quote Originally Posted by RotaUte View Post
    I take it you're a PF member by the gay sarcastic comment that I'm sure you thought
    was funny after 2 beers, but it was lamer than possibly recordable.

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    As mentioned, in my second reply, it is pretty unusual for me to not have at least 30m of rope out in a typical winch pull, so I reckon 25m would get a bit frustrating.

    Lots of the terrain I play in can be a long way between decent anchors. Plan is probably to go to 50m of 11mm (in lieu of 45m of 9mm) when I go to the +76mm deltatek drum.

    It's not that I'm ignoring the suggestion of 2:1 pulls (I'm equipped to rig for 3:1 pulls and pretty regularly rig 2:1 pulls), it's just that it still doesn't address the actual issue at hand, which is that I'd really like a bit more line speed when around 4000-6000lbs load.
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

  6. #6
    Big Block Ford 545 cubes! XEFalconUte's Avatar
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    You're now at a point if you want more speed, it'll require lotsa dollars. Allbright solenoids, large (at least 70mm^2) cables (per motor) and twin alternators with enough batteries to scare a Tesla. Is this for a social wheeling rig or a comp car? If for a social wheeling rig I'm not sure it would be worth the money, but for a comp car..... That's why I was trying for efficiency gains first. Though air free spool sniffs of comp rig.
    Quote Originally Posted by RotaUte View Post
    I take it you're a PF member by the gay sarcastic comment that I'm sure you thought
    was funny after 2 beers, but it was lamer than possibly recordable.

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    Usage is a bit of a weird mix, have about a dozen really close mates all with turbo diesel cruisers, big tyres, lockers, crawler gears and a typical trip is a 4 day long weekend somewhere 3-5 hours from Brisbane. Trucks get driven pretty hard but are still just social usage.

    I figure I'm in for about $1500 for the delta-tek freespool, wider fairlead and 50m of 11mm rope.

    Regardless of which way I go, I figure I'm up for the gigglepin mainshaft and probably the large cam gear, so another $700.

    That then leaves the question of bowmotor + hellfire gears vs. adventure series top housing (which comes with +25% gearing), second xp motor. Then changes to solenoids and wiring to suit.

    Alternator upgrade is a bit of a pain, had a 110a alternator (up from stock 80a) but it fried the rectifier pack so the stock one is back in while I chase parts to rebuild the 110a unit. Currently have 2 N70 batteries, but with plans afoot to squeeze at least one and possible two more depending on how the packaging goes. Unfortunately fuck-all space to package a second alternator.
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

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    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    Rather than modding the Warn, have you considered a new winch? Purpose built competion electric and hydro winches aren't a whole lot more expensive than modding the current unit.
    As for alternators, there are a few seriously high output units out there.http://www.mechman.com/alternators/u...tor-1-wire-6s/

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    I figure I'm in for about $1500 for the delta-tek freespool, wider fairlead and 50m of 11mm rope.
    Im biased as i build freespools, but id stay away from the Deltas, they have some design issues which they dont seem to keen on fixing.

    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Regardless of which way I go, I figure I'm up for the gigglepin mainshaft and probably the large cam gear, so another $700.
    If your staying single motor and 12V you 100% dont need to do the upgraded large gigglepin gear. That gear is ususally supplied on request or with the purchace of a twin motor tophat. In saying that, if you are staying 12V then drilling and tapping a M12 hole in the end of the standard brake shaft and making a cap for the end so you can ditch the circlip is all thats required. If you do decide to upgrade the brake shaft, you dont need to upgrade the large gear as well

    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    That then leaves the question of bowmotor + hellfire gears vs. adventure series top housing (which comes with +25% gearing), second xp motor. Then changes to solenoids and wiring to suit.
    Bow3s are huge, and no one really uses them down here in Vic. Even in racing they dont get used for the most part as they are very heavy on the electrical system. All the testing ive seen and been involved in, has required 3 batterys per motor when using a Bow3 to keep the amps up to it. Also they are significantly slower than a 6HP motor (4000rpm vs 5000rpm) but they dont stop. The other issue they have is they are known to break the splines of the end of the motor

    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Alternator upgrade is a bit of a pain, had a 110a alternator (up from stock 80a) but it fried the rectifier pack so the stock one is back in while I chase parts to rebuild the 110a unit. Currently have 2 N70 batteries, but with plans afoot to squeeze at least one and possible two more depending on how the packaging goes. Unfortunately fuck-all space to package a second alternator.
    Given you have the batterys already, you can easily and cheaply do a switching 12v / 24v mod to run your highmount on 24v which will give you more grunt and more speed easily and cheaply. The motors will last fine as long as it isnt a burnt out heap, and as long as you dont stall the winch and hold the power button in. There are also motors that have better stall resistance and dont eat them selves as quickly when they do stall






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    Quote Originally Posted by irsa76 View Post
    Rather than modding the Warn, have you considered a new winch? Purpose built competion electric and hydro winches aren't a whole lot more expensive than modding the current unit.
    As for alternators, there are a few seriously high output units out there.http://www.mechman.com/alternators/u...tor-1-wire-6s/
    You can mod a highmount to the same specs as full built winches for a between half and three quarters the cost of a full race winch.
    The main reason people upgrade to a full winch here is when you start breaking the lower housing.
    Last edited by big_matt; 01-07-16 at 09:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big_matt View Post
    Im biased as i build freespools, but id stay away from the Deltas, they have some design issues which they dont seem to keen on fixing.
    Tell me more about your products and/or services.

    Quote Originally Posted by big_matt
    If your staying single motor and 12V you 100% dont need to do the upgraded large gigglepin gear. That gear is ususally supplied on request or with the purchace of a twin motor tophat. In saying that, if you are staying 12V then drilling and tapping a M12 hole in the end of the standard brake shaft and making a cap for the end so you can ditch the circlip is all thats required. If you do decide to upgrade the brake shaft, you dont need to upgrade the large gear as well
    Duly noted, had seen some discussion that the big gear change was unnecessary, glad to have it corroborated.

    Quote Originally Posted by big_matt
    Bow3s are huge, and no one really uses them down here in Vic. Even in racing they dont get used for the most part as they are very heavy on the electrical system. All the testing ive seen and been involved in, has required 3 batterys per motor when using a Bow3 to keep the amps up to it. Also they are significantly slower than a 6HP motor (4000rpm vs 5000rpm) but they dont stop. The other issue they have is they are known to break the splines of the end of the motor
    This is the discussion I'm chasing, in terms of electrical system requirements, you're saying that one bowmotor3 > two warn 6hp XP motors?

    Quote Originally Posted by big_matt
    Given you have the batterys already, you can easily and cheaply do a switching 12v / 24v mod to run your highmount on 24v which will give you more grunt and more speed easily and cheaply. The motors will last fine as long as it isnt a burnt out heap, and as long as you dont stall the winch and hold the power button in. There are also motors that have better stall resistance and dont eat them selves as quickly when they do stall
    Now this is some food for thought, I was aware of switchable 12/24 wiring setups but for whatever reason hadn't considered it. Whats the usual go here for wiring? e.g. Is there a common series/parallel switch that people use?
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Tell me more about your products and/or services.
    I make freespool drums and twin motor tophats for warn highmounts, and have a whole range of extra products coming out over the next 3 or 4 months such as brake shafts and brake / brakeshaft rebuild kits etc to name a few, but there will be a lot of stuff happening before years end

    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Duly noted, had seen some discussion that the big gear change was unnecessary, glad to have it corroborated.
    I dont recall seeing any break on single motor applications, and i know a few people racing with twin motor set ups still using the factory large cam gear

    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    This is the discussion I'm chasing, in terms of electrical system requirements, you're saying that one bowmotor3 > two warn 6hp XP motors?
    A bow3 has a very high current draw, and has a lot more grunt than a warn 6HP or a Bow2. The warn is 6hp and the bow2 is roughly 6.8hp where the bow3 is 9hp, but has 20% less max revs. Having said that, it dosnt slow down under load like the smaller motors as you would expect, however your still putting all that power through the same size input into the pinion gear in the tophat.

    You can 24v a bow3, i have a mate who had a lot of success doing this, but i know even more people who have smoked motors trying it due to not enough capacity in the electrical system and to small cables, also note GP and Goodwinch do not recommend 24v into bow3s

    Id personally go for 2 smaller motors over the one large one. The cost is higher, but you have a lot more options for upgrades after that, and a much stronger and more reliable unit

    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Now this is some food for thought, I was aware of switchable 12/24 wiring setups but for whatever reason hadn't considered it. Whats the usual go here for wiring? e.g. Is there a common series/parallel switch that people use?
    Ill look through the info i have and find the wiring diagram and post it, but yes most people use a modded winch solinoid (usually albrights or thompsons) to switch between 12v / 24v. There are a few considerations to make, such as whats running of what batterys when they switch, and earthing the second battery. I dont remember the specifics as all mine are dedicated 24v systems for the winches, but ill post the info i have once i find it

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    The positive lead from the main battery (on the passenger side) goes to the rear right terminal (normal power in terminal on the solenoid, not shown)
    The lead on the right had side (red heat shrink, F1 post on motor normally) goes to the positive on the second battery
    The left had side lead (black heat shrink, F2 post on motor normally) goes to the negative
    There is also a normal earth wire running from the second battery to the chassis. Except that half way along is a normal silver can winch solenoid that cuts the earth when you have your selector switch in off or 24v

    To do it this way you need to open up solenoid case and remove the brass bar that would normally be connected to the armature on the motor
    Wiring the solenoid is just like wiring it if it was for the winch motor, push the switch one way 12v, middle is off, other way gives you 24v, you just need to wire the silver can to have power only when on 12v
    This also acted as a isolator in the car, because I had the starter motor connected to the second battery. When the switch was off the battery had no earth and the starter solenoid just clicked

    There is another way of doing it using a normal solid state winch solenoid that incorperates the earth into it so everything is done within the one unit


    This diag is using 3 col herse solinoids



    This is all from a post on a 4wd forum, the main one above with the detailed run down is from a mates car

    Hope all that helps
    Last edited by big_matt; 10-07-16 at 01:06 PM.

  14. #14
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    Thought there'd be blokes using winch solenoids to do it (but couldn't be bothered sitting down with a pen and paper to work it all out myself...)

    I come from a truck background and some american trucks run 24v starting on otherwise 12v systems, so there are off the shelf solenoids like this one.

    http://www.texasindustrialelectric.c...lel_switch.asp

    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

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    Nice, electricals are not my strong point, but i van make almost anything on my cncs

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    What is one of your twin motor housings worth and what advantage would it offer over an equivalent GP unit?

    Similarly, what are your air free spools worth and what makes them a wiser choice than a deltatek or GP unit?
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

  17. #17
    Stunt Dog Esteban's Avatar
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    I am similarly interested in the above questions :-)
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    Sorry ive been away and busy as hell, ill put up some details tonight or tomorrow

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    What is one of your twin motor housings worth and what advantage would it offer over an equivalent GP unit?
    Twin motor top hats are currently around $1200+ but we are working through pricing at the moment as we have made a few changes that require extra time in the machine, i wouldnt expect the price to change to much though

    We dont offer the upgraded large brake shaft gear with the tophat, but we are currently making a batch of brakeshafts and gears so we will have them required. We have run plenty of competitive stages without needing the upgraded gear, however if it does fail it could be very costly, i guess it depends on the intended use of the winch

    I believe our tophat is stronger over all (i havnt tested a GP to failure) however i would rate billet alloy over cast every time, added to that ours are also thicker (and heavier, so keep that in mind if weight is an issue) although im not sure how much heavier.

    Gears are very similar, shot peaned and heat treated gear steel, we havnt even seen marking on them yet.

    The other advantage is they are made here and we have a good contact base if any problems come up, and we warranty our products in race situations as well. Also we dont stop developing the product either. There will be some new stuff out very shortly (one of the reasons i hadnt updated this post ..... sorry)

    There is still about 6 weeks before we will be even close to having new stock as we are running through the new batch changes, editing programs and double checking the fit of everything, also a new idea is being implemented as well that has pushed the date back as well

    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Similarly, what are your air free spools worth and what makes them a wiser choice than a deltatek or GP unit?
    Air freespools are as follows
    STD - $1190+
    +76 - $1250+
    +100 - $1305+

    Ok so what makes them a better choice ....

    First up, price, we are similar to Delta last time i looked, and significantly cheaper than GP

    Once again, we warranty the product on time, not usage, so either way if it has issues your covered. I cant speak for GP or Delta, but Wayne (GP) from what i know is also very good with warranty, i cant comment on Delta

    There are some new features in the new drums which none of the other drums have, such as replacable drive faces so the drum if fully servicable, and rope through drum instead of the dicky rope hoop thats welded on. There are other small things that ill put up pics and stuff of shortly, currently working through Patent process before we release everything into the wild

    Once again sorry for the late reply, feel free to ask any other questions

    Cheers

  20. #20
    Stunt Dog Esteban's Avatar
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    That is very interesting indeed.

    For the front winch I'm kinda leaning towards my general armageddon/futureproof design philosophy where stock 8274 parts are favored as they are generally more available (and affordable). I also like to have two of everything for spares.

    However I may be persuaded to build a balls out 8274 variant where stock parts require little or no modification (ie. bolt in/on) at some stage in the future!
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    Registered User ar3nbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Thought there'd be blokes using winch solenoids to do it (but couldn't be bothered sitting down with a pen and paper to work it all out myself...)

    I come from a truck background and some american trucks run 24v starting on otherwise 12v systems, so there are off the shelf solenoids like this one.

    http://www.texasindustrialelectric.c...lel_switch.asp


    So this sort of setup allows everything else in the car to continue to operate at 12v whilst only the winch (or whatever is connected to the output) operates at 24v?

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    Yes, but can't charge one of the batteries while it is providing 24v, so can only use it for intermittent tasks like starting and winching.
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

  23. #23
    Registered User ar3nbe's Avatar
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    Thread bump.

    I currently run a Warn M8000 with a motor of a XD9000. This gives me numerically higher gear ratio to help for those 'heavy pull' situations.

    I decided I should buy a motor and ended up with a Road runner motor that is supposed to be similar (same factory) as the Bow 2. I am yet to install, but am planning to once I get a winch bar for the new Patrol (moved from a Gq to a Gu and am slowly moving all the parts across).

    Anyway, I've located an old, 1985 if I read the numbers correct high mount local to me for what I think is a decent price. Should I bother upgrading? The new motor will go straight on the high mount. How do the low mounts compare to the highs in terms of pulling power once a Bow 2 motor is installed.

    I like the idea of being able to mod the high mount, but am also worried that it will be a money pit as there are so many options. I've been eyeing off twin motor adapters already.

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    High mount is a terrible idea, you should buy it and send it to me for safe storage...

    For me, lots of the country I 4wd in can be a long way between anchors, so a typical low mount with either 28 or 30m of rope, which limits you to about 25m max per pull can be a pain. With careful use of extension ropes/straps it isn't the end of the world, just a pain. The 8274 or some larger winches like the M12000 have larger capacity drums, which means you can carry 40m of 10mm or 45m of 9mm rope without the drum being too stuffed full.

    The 8274 isn't a perfect design, out of the box they're not well braced, the don't have fill and drain plugs, the brake circlip is dubious and the brake setup is completely exposed to the environment. But they've got the best aftermarket support of any winch ever made, they're essentially the small-block chev of winches (e.g. an original 262ci small block making 100hp is pretty underwhelming but eminently upgradeable).

    The factory solenoid pack is an old school job with 4 separate solenoids, you'll want to ditch that ASAP. To get the best out of your motor you're going to want two at least two big (e.g. N70ZZ) cranking batteries wired in parallel and 0 gauge (50mm^2) cabling. If the winch has still got its steel cable, you'll want 40m of 10mm dyneema. So make sure you've built all of that into your budget on top of what you've spent on the motor and the price of the winch itself.

    Ultimately, it'd come down to the sort of 4wding you do. I've got two groups of mates that I hit the bush with, one are pretty happy to see a nice campsite and do a nice scenic forest drive. The others are defective, their idea of a good weekend is trying to drive a 40 year abandoned timber jinkers track where you spend as much time arguing whether the track existed or chainsawing fallen timber as you do actually driving. If you're more like the first group, I wouldn't bother. If you're more like the latter, you'll love it.

    Like everything, horses for courses.

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    Last edited by hotgemini; 10-07-17 at 09:42 PM.
    Don't worry, thats just the self-preservation instinct, in my experience you can safely ignore it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hotgemini View Post
    Had one of these fuck up on my brothers Kenworth... terrifying, amazing and costly all at the same time!

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