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Thread: Rosberg has Retired

  1. #361
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vet 180 View Post
    Yeah I am familiar with the maths behind the model, been following for a couple years now and that's why it's flawed. I do find it interesting, but it's very flawed as all things are considered a constant. It favours drivers in teams with clear 1 2 pecking order and doesn't consider drivers stepping up when the pressure is on a characteristic that separates the men from the boys.

    The thing is rosberg is not the exception. Most of the drivers in that model have big descrepencies.
    That's the whole idea of those models - to remove the subjective aspects and just run the numbers to see if what comes out might throw up some surprises and challenge the popular perceptions. Instead you get people going "but it doesn't confirm the popular consensus of who we've always been told is great, so it must be nonsense". Then say stuff like it favours teams with a clear 1-2 pecking order and in the next breath say Rosberg appearing in there isn't an exception... your logic is all over the shop.

    People also seem to neglect that Prost was great before Senna even came along. He held the record for number of GP wins till Schumacher broke it. His first and last WDCs spanned 9 seasons. And his 4 WDCs was more than anyone else except Fangio, and he was a bit unlucky not to get a couple more really, only due to points system fiddling.
    Last edited by hrd; 31-12-16 at 06:32 AM.

  2. #362
    Desert Nigga vet 180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrd View Post
    That's the whole idea of those models - to remove the subjective aspects and just run the numbers to see if what comes out might throw up some surprises and challenge the popular perceptions. Instead you get people going "but it doesn't confirm the popular consensus of who we've always been told is great, so it must be nonsense". Then say stuff like it favours teams with a clear 1-2 pecking order and in the next breath say Rosberg appearing in there isn't an exception... your logic is all over the shop.

    People also seem to neglect that Prost was great before Senna even came along. He held the record for number of GP wins till Schumacher broke it. His first and last WDCs spanned 9 seasons. And his 4 WDCs was more than anyone else except Fangio, and he was a bit unlucky not to get a couple more really, only due to points system fiddling.
    I agree Prost was a great driver well before Senna came along. That's why the results as teams mates are even more impressive for Senna.

    Read a little more carefully what I said about the models. I do like that they make you think outside the box, but they are flawed. Also I never said Rosberg appearing is the issue with the model. I said that in one model Rosberg gets named 7th best driver that ever existed and in another he gets named 49th. That's a BIG discrepancy caused simply because of 1 small change in the way the models calculate the data. And its not just Rosberg. most of that list has a discrepancies of 20 plus positions between 1 model to another.

    The other big issue I have with ALL the models is it assumes fixed performance distribution across their entire career. This is my biggest issue with the models because as soon as someone beats an aging or rookie great their stock goes up. Think of what Rosberg beating Micheal at Mercedes would have done for his calculations in that model.
    Quote Originally Posted by Babalouie View Post
    Geez we're a bunch of softcocks...we have a 911 and we're obsessing over non-functional ducts and indicator colours

  3. #363
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    like a younger Senna at his peak against the older champ several years after his first WDC perhaps?
    Prost was still very fast, but probably past his absolute peak when they were team mates

  4. #364
    TJzone TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vet 180 View Post
    I agree Prost was a great driver well before Senna came along. That's why the results as teams mates are even more impressive for Senna.
    Amen. He WIPED the floor with another legend of the sport.
    #teamtremolo
    Quote Originally Posted by brasher
    TJ is 99% African American.

  5. #365
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    lolz
    1988 Prost 105 v Senna 94, became 87 v 90 after not counting one third of the season. Yep, Senna really "WIPED the floor" with Prost!
    1989 Prost 81 v Senna 60, became 76 v 60. Not seeing the floor wiping there I'm afraid.

    at least there's one thing all those models agreed on....
    Last edited by hrd; 01-01-17 at 12:58 PM.

  6. #366
    Registered User Reedy's Avatar
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    Still don't know why Mercedes haven't signed Jenson yet. Peter Windsor agrees.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgNfZpOTG2Q
    Last edited by Reedy; 02-01-17 at 09:50 AM.

  7. #367
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    I think for judging drivers, the metric needs to be around how much they beat their teammates over the whole career. Cars/teams change between years but drivers skill/speed doesn't (much at all IMO) and there are not many complete dud drivers that make it to F1.

  8. #368
    Desert Nigga vet 180's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrd View Post
    lolz
    1988 Prost 105 v Senna 94, became 87 v 90 after not counting one third of the season. Yep, Senna really "WIPED the floor" with Prost!
    1989 Prost 81 v Senna 60, became 76 v 60. Not seeing the floor wiping there I'm afraid.

    at least there's one thing all those models agreed on....
    Those stats are all well and good, but the fact remains Senna beat Prost 14-9 in races where neither driver had a mechanical failure. Yep, Senna really "WIPED the floor" with Prost!
    Quote Originally Posted by Babalouie View Post
    Geez we're a bunch of softcocks...we have a 911 and we're obsessing over non-functional ducts and indicator colours

  9. #369
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    and back in those days you had to drive the car sympathetically to keep them going...

  10. #370
    Registered tax offender SuperDave's Avatar
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    Thread to be renamed to "Rosberg fully retired"?
    My car
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post
    Wait, I can have a coke bore in my backyard? Can I have a hooker bore as well?

  11. #371
    Registered User Milkman Don's Avatar
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    Rosberg has Retired

    Motorsport has a good interview with Georgio Piola, very good read.

    I like the below that's in the article, is a very good couple of small paragraphs.

    The races now are wonderful and the level of drivers is good. In Schumi's times, it was only Mika Hakkinen and then Alonso came. Now we have at least five drivers nearly at the same level, like when there were Senna, Piquet, Berger, Prost, Mansell.

    If you ask me, I'll say Senna was best driver of my time in Formula 1. Not Schumi, because he was fighting only with one. Senna was fighting with four or five other people that were as good as him. Michael had a very easy life, he won so many championships, but sometimes fighting against nobody.

    Barrichello was not even allowed the drink the tea same as Schumi. Rosberg and Hamilton, they had the same material at their disposal. They fought, they collided there was big competition between the two.

  12. #372
    Talga Vassternich Stalker440's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrd View Post
    and back in those days you had to drive the car sympathetically to keep them going...
    As opposed to today's cars that are driven at roughly 80% for most of the race to conserve tires/fuel/engines/gearboxes?
    Quote Originally Posted by thecrackfox
    I wanna put you in a dress and hurt you...

  13. #373
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkman Don View Post
    Motorsport has a good interview with Georgio Piola, very good read.

    I like the below that's in the article, is a very good couple of small paragraphs.
    If you ask me, I'll say Senna was best driver of my time in Formula 1. Not Schumi, because he was fighting only with one. Senna was fighting with four or five other people that were as good as him. Michael had a very easy life, he won so many championships, but sometimes fighting against nobody.
    lol nobody good came along in that decade and a half hey? Hakkinen, Alonso, Raikkonen, Montoya, Vileneuve...

    And you'd never find Senna move to a struggling team that hadn't won a championship in decades as part of an effort to build something up. Senna jumped ship as soon as another car looked faster!

    Mika Hakkinen was a mug eh? Vill

  14. #374
    TJzone TJ's Avatar
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    Montoya - the one shot he had to win the title, the FIA fucked him
    Kimi needed a non grenading McLaren or he would have done it
    Alonso ended his run of success

    Both Kimi and Fred were young guys at the start of their careers and only around for the last few of MS v1 so?

    Ferrari weren't quite as shit as you are making them out to be - could/should of won the title in 90, they had wins in 91, 93, 94, 95, won 3 times in his first year in 96. They just needed someone to drag them over the hump to do it consistently.

    Mika beat him twice in straight up fights, but that car was pretty damn good. Pound for pound, the most talented guy he genuinely had to fight in his Ferrari years.

    Anyone doubting Michael's brilliance is a fool however.
    #teamtremolo
    Quote Originally Posted by brasher
    TJ is 99% African American.

  15. #375
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    The picture I paint is certainly more accurate than yours. Considering as you say they were in the hunt in 1990, and then went winless until 1994 where they got one win and then one more in 1995. That was a pretty big hump they needed to be dragged over.

    The 1996 car was designed by Bernard: "Irvine did not have fond memories of the F310, calling it "an awful car" a "piece of junk" and "almost undriveable", as did John Barnard, who admitted that the car "wasn't very good"." Michaels first win in that was pretty freaking remarkable!

  16. #376
    The royal penis is clean tremolo's Avatar
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    My personal opinion is that comparing drivers of different (even overlapping) eras is like trying to argue bacon is better/worse than Nirvana - Nevermind. They are completely different.

  17. #377
    TJzone TJ's Avatar
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    You are right - no wins in 91 actually.
    #teamtremolo
    Quote Originally Posted by brasher
    TJ is 99% African American.

  18. #378
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    or 1993.
    Just 2 wins in the 5 years before MS moved there. And both of those came only when all the Bennetons and Williams either retired or had problems.

  19. #379
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by komori440 View Post
    As opposed to today's cars that are driven at roughly 80% for most of the race to conserve tires/fuel/engines/gearboxes?
    Well yes, it is totally opposed to today's cars. You can no longer miss, grind or mistime a gear, or buzz the engine on downshifts or anything like that. And they had actual race tyres and enough fuel to go pretty much as hard as the cars could handle for 2hrs. Knowing how hard you could push the cars while still managing to finish was part of the game.
    There were times when their tyre choice meant they might hold back a while to save their tyres for a charge at the end of the race, but that tactical game they played to try and finish the GP as fast as possible is nothing like the limited fuel and forced tyre compounds choices and 2 compound tyre rules they have today, or the fake tyre wear and degradation they have now. There was no 80% for the majority of the races back then because the governing body were limiting your fuel load or flow rates. No 80% due to tyres designed not to stand up to racing, and no one telling you what tyre you had to run or which compounds you had to use. You chose what you felt was best for the job and drove it the way you felt was best to finish the race as fast as possible. There used to be this saying, "To finish first, first you must finish"...
    Last edited by hrd; 04-01-17 at 06:22 AM.

  20. #380
    Pollitically incorrect
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    *yawn*

    I wonder what Rosberg is up to?
    .... because every driver experiences the destructive potential of the effortless surge of power available through the smallest of body movements.

    Dr Hoon
    .

    DrNick is king!!!! No, Mark Webber is now! Long live the king!... hold on a minute mate, Ricci is in charge now

  21. #381
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    Yes, far more interesting. It's 10:37 in Monaco. I image he's fallen asleep with his WDC trophy having WIPED the floor with one of the legends of the sport... lol

  22. #382
    TJzone TJ's Avatar
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    Yeah, but Michael was like 40 and there for fun, so not really a fair comparison
    #teamtremolo
    Quote Originally Posted by brasher
    TJ is 99% African American.

  23. #383
    Registered User hrd's Avatar
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    hehe true, the last team mate he beat wasn't really a legend!

  24. #384
    TJzone TJ's Avatar
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    Well Kazuki Nakajima was only there because of Toyota, so yeah.
    #teamtremolo
    Quote Originally Posted by brasher
    TJ is 99% African American.

  25. #385
    On the dais Greg Rust's Avatar
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    And Merc announced the favourite Finish driver Bottas.
    xw Falcon 393 full race cam, NGK spark plugs.

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