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Thread: Lithium battery

  1. #1
    Registered User SR20 KE30's Avatar
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    Lithium battery

    The battery just died in my car. Was a harley battery fiberglass matt type one 400cca. Looking at a lithium i think since weight is a factor. 2 litre turbo with the battery in the boot. Looking at this one, unless someone can point me to a better option?

    http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/MOTOCELL-GO...%257Ciid%253A1
    Last edited by SR20 KE30; 16-04-17 at 06:19 PM.
    meh

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    Registered User SR20 KE30's Avatar
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    meh

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    Half Shafted. Madhatr's Avatar
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    Just make sure you check the charging specs. Most have different requirements of higher voltages and lower amperage. Car alternator continually overcharges it, so they die pretty quickly (no warranty too).
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    Not a Fan. Agent86's Avatar
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    Lithium batteries require controled charging, so unless the batt has an inbuilt controller, it wont work without adding such to the car.

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    Improved Production Racer Datman's Avatar
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    I know some guys using the "Anti Gravity" brand. No problems reported at this stage, but you will need the proper charger for it.
    I'll be using one of the 16 cell units in my car soon also.
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    Registered User SR20 KE30's Avatar
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    I noticed that a lot of the sizes for this brand had special charging requirements, the ones for all the jap bikes. This one doesn't list any but i guess is an expensive way to find out, will see if i can find more info.
    meh

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    Registered User SR20 KE30's Avatar
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    http://earthxbatteries.com/engine-ch...hium-batteries found this. is interesting, i will see what info i can find on an sr20 alternator.
    meh

  8. #8
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    3 kg in a 900kg car is critical? Really?
    Just put another AGM in it ad take a really good shit before driving.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

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    Improved Production Racer Datman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    3 kg in a 900kg car is critical? Really?
    Just put another AGM in it ad take a really good shit before driving.
    Every little bit counts. I find also, that as soon as you "settle" for one heavier option, all of a sudden you start "settling" on other things...."it's only X kilograms heavier that's ok" Before you know it, you are carrying an extra 20-30kg's.

    The AntiGravity battery weighs around 1.5kg, so pretty light.
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    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datman View Post
    Every little bit counts. I find also, that as soon as you "settle" for one heavier option, all of a sudden you start "settling" on other things...."it's only X kilograms heavier that's ok" Before you know it, you are carrying an extra 20-30kg's.

    The AntiGravity battery weighs around 1.5kg, so pretty light.
    Look, i'm currently weighing every change I make to my Katana - but that's something where an extra kilo can be felt given it's only 200kg all up...
    I run a little Oddysey in my GTV - it weighs ~950kg. I can add or subtract 3kg from the back of the car with 4 litres of fuel, and the difference is fuckall - can feel the difference 20l of fuel makes though.
    3 kg saving for a $300+ battery of questionable reliability seems like an expensive change that can hardly be noticed. Sure, I know plenty of people with lithiums in bikes with no problems, but I also know people who have had no end of problems with them - they're especially a problem if your charging system sucks.
    There's plenty of other places I'd go hell for leather looking for weight loss before replacing a 4kg battery with one that's 1/4 the weight at 4+ times the cost - it's not like it's a conventional car sized battery to start with.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

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    Registered User SR20 KE30's Avatar
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    It is what datman said, just counting kilos, 3kg is not much, but if you stop counting it adds up. My battery died and im looking at options. After much research i have come to the conclusion that you just stated, it's a bit too early for the technology and it's not worth the risk. Maybe in a few years it will be viable, tbh your input would have been much appreciated sooner. To replace the agm seems to be around $250 these days, i swear i paid less the first time, so the lithium potentially seemed viable, after research i think in about 5 years it will be, but not yet.
    Last edited by SR20 KE30; 20-04-17 at 10:51 PM.
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  12. #12
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    I would have thought you'd be into a decent agm for half that. I think I paid around $60 for a YT14
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

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    Registered User SR20 KE30's Avatar
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    I was using that deka brand, it's American and pricey it seems. I found a seadoo one instead in a different brand for $100 with the same external dimensions, so no need to modify my holder.
    meh

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    Registered User neil_se's Avatar
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    Have a read through some previous threads on here, I think issues with lithiums are overstated. I ran my SR20 track car on a 1.1kg SSB brand lithium and now I've put it in my LSx FD project (not yet running). I've only just bought a lithium specific charger for it, cost around $120.

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    on hoes? yohoes's Avatar
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    Im running a Lithiumax one.. its like 2yrs old now.. i think its 550cca or 650cca or similar, and weighs 1.8kg

    I did nothing special to the alternator or anything, its fine

    You will require a Lithium specific charger, i never drive my car so i always have it on trickle charge with my Ctek charger (it was about $120)..

    They have low amp hours so after 2 weeks of it sitting there you'll drain the battery without a trickle charge (not that it matters, ive drained mine to 1.5v or similar output before)

    Cold starts my large cammed + ethanol RB26 no dramas

  16. #16
    Registered User Banzai's Avatar
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    SSB lithium batteries are fine with good old fashioned battery chargers. I've let my SSB battery go flat on my bike a couple of times. 10 minutes on my 25 year old Arlec charger and it is usually good to go. The SSBs don't need special balancing chargers.
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    SSB battery I put in the mower isn't happy (it was a good fit and the same price roughly as lead acids). Looks like it might have dropped a cell.

    Link above provides a reasonable indication of why. Would be nice if they were a bit clearer in their specs or built in filtering into the charge circuit.
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    Half Shafted. Madhatr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banzai View Post
    SSB lithium batteries are fine with good old fashioned battery chargers. I've let my SSB battery go flat on my bike a couple of times. 10 minutes on my 25 year old Arlec charger and it is usually good to go. The SSBs don't need special balancing chargers.
    Yeah they do. New chargers ramp up the current output when starting, kind of like the rejuvenation function on older ones. They whack a whole heap of current into the battery when first connected, then settle into a routine cycle until its charged. Without you knowing it, you already have one with a fixed output. If its that old its either a trickle charger that puts out less than 1amp, or it's at the most a 4amp charger which is still below the maximum the battery will take. The problem is charging it on a car alternator too. I just replaced a dead HVT battery with like for like when I was intending to go lithium, they wont warrant anything but the pro series lithium batteries for use in cars. They need a constant output to stop them from being damaged. It was a difference of nearly $600 to save 7kg.
    Last edited by Madhatr; 26-04-17 at 11:30 AM.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by yohoes View Post
    Im running a Lithiumax one.. its like 2yrs old now.. i think its 550cca or 650cca or similar, and weighs 1.8kg

    I did nothing special to the alternator or anything, its fine

    You will require a Lithium specific charger, i never drive my car so i always have it on trickle charge with my Ctek charger (it was about $120)..

    They have low amp hours so after 2 weeks of it sitting there you'll drain the battery without a trickle charge (not that it matters, ive drained mine to 1.5v or similar output before)

    Cold starts my large cammed + ethanol RB26 no dramas
    Lithium batteries do not like to be left on trickle charge. Once they are full they the voltage needs to come off. In fact they will last longest if stored at around 40% charge. So for a track car with no loads draining the battery between usage you will be best off leaving the battery then topping it off just prior to the cars next usage. The battery should not be allowed to be drained flat as it will cause permanent damage. So if the car has a few power draws that will drain it, its best to just disconnect it. I'm not sure with the ctek algorithm for a lithium charge, it might just turn off at 100% and top it back up once it gets to 98% or something much like a phone charger.

    Some lithium batteries will come with a inbuilt BMS. Pays to check that out. This one I found in 2 seconds on ebay says it has a BMS. I have no idea on how good it is.

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LITHIUM-B...UAAOSw0RpXlYXQ
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 28-04-17 at 08:28 PM.
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    SSB claims the following.

    SSB PowerSport Lithium Batteries are also one of the only Lithium Ion Batteries that can be charged using normal 12V car battery chargers / alternators except for CHargers with Automatic Rejuvenation or Desulphation Mode. SSB PowerSport Lithium Batteries are also 100% organic, fully recyclable and pollution free, making them an excellent green energy source.
    They never said they have a BMS of any type. Nor did they stipulate max and min voltages which seems odd.

    They are LiFePO4 which means 4 cells in series should be charged to a max of 14.4V, but 14V will a give very small reduction in capacity with a large increase in life span. 11.2 is the lower safe limit. Just disconnect it between track outings for the longest life unless you are going to leave it for so long its self discharge will discharge it below 11.2. Which would be over a year. Leaving it on a charger is a shit idea unless there is some reason the car needs power the whole time.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 28-04-17 at 08:53 PM.
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    Registered User neil_se's Avatar
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    I recently bought one of these to be safe. Not really sure how it differs from a regular charger.

    http://www.autoelec.com.au/genius-smart-battery-charger-noco-6v-12v-car-motor

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    SSB claims the following.



    They never said they have a BMS of any type. Nor did they stipulate max and min voltages which seems odd.

    They are LiFePO4 which means 4 cells in series should be charged to a max of 14.4V, but 14V will a give very small reduction in capacity with a large increase in life span. 11.2 is the lower safe limit. Just disconnect it between track outings for the longest life unless you are going to leave it for so long its self discharge will discharge it below 11.2. Which would be over a year. Leaving it on a charger is a shit idea unless there is some reason the car needs power the whole time.
    Yes, but that is not ALL their lithium batteries though. There are different batteries in their range. Click on the model for more detail. Here is an example;

    http://www.ssbpowersport.com.au/Prod...6/Default.aspx

    Because of its extremely high CCA some customers make the mistake of using the lithium batteries to replace much larger lead acid types. Please note that these are motorcycle batteries and they are not designed for use in cars or to replace much larger lead-acid batteries.
    and

    MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS:

    Do not use Chargers with Automatic Rejuvenation or Desulphation Mode
    If the vehicle is in storage or used infrequently, disconnect the battery cable. This eliminates the battery draining from the electrical equipment. Or measure the battery voltage and if it is lower than 12.4 Volts, do a refresh charge. If the battery is unused for any period of time, check the voltage and if lower than 12.4 Volts, recharge as described on the charging label. Do not exceed 14.6 Volts when charging.
    However, if you go to their pro series;

    http://www.ssbpowersport.com.au/Prod...5/Default.aspx

    You'll notice the regular charge rate is much higher at 12 amps, with the max rate being about triple. Gone is the note about not using them in cars, and the specifics about chargers.

    MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS:

    If the vehicle is in storage or used infrequently, disconnect the battery cable. This eliminates the battery draining from the electrical equipment. Or measure the battery voltage and if it is lower than 12.4 Volts, do a refresh charge. If the battery is unused for any period of time, check the voltage and if lower than 12.4 Volts, recharge as described on the charging label. Do not exceed 14.6 Volts when charging.
    As I said earlier in the thread, it's only their pro series that are designed for use in cars. They will warrant them as such, where the rest of the lithium range isn't covered.
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    I've got this one in the track car, a 2013 Suzuki Swift:

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SSB-ultra...QAAOSwv0tVZS4w

    it's 1.7kg. AFTER I brought it the seller said he would not warrant it for a car, reckons that a car alternator would "overcharge" it, and reckons it would only last 6 months. Given that car alternators are regulated, I don't understand this, and I've also committed the sin of running it dead flat twice by leaving the OBD bluetooth sender plugged in. Now have a battery isolation switch. Anyway, after about 11 months it's still working.

    Next time I'm going to get this one:

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Antigravity-Lithium-Lightweight-290CCA-YT7B-DUCATI-OEM-Replacement-Battery-/262009815594?hash=item3d0100822a:gEIAAOSwjVVV0ppE

    The seller said he would warrant it in the track car, and it's the same price as the SSB.

    OP, you should be able to get away with less than 600cca, especially since you live in Queensland. I've turned up to Wakefield Park when it's 5 degrees, 290cca starts my Swift fine, and it's 11.3:1 compression ratio.

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    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
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    The recommendations were similar to what I said as per any battery of the same chemistry. IE, don't charge over 14.4 (they say 14.6 so people will still buy them as just about every alt will charge to 14.6), and disconnect when not in use instead of "trickle charging". Still no mention of BMS. Seems rudimentary that it would take roughly 3 times the charge at roughly 3 times the size. I conclude its just a stock standard 4S lifepo4 pack with zero protection and should be treated as such. Search lifepo4 batteries for a broader wealth of information so as not to be limited by the tiny sales related material on the SSB site.
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    I've got a 290 cca SSB in my Suzuki Swift track car, it's 1.7kg. AFTER I brought it the seller said he would not warrant it for a car, reckons that a car alternator would "overcharge" it, and reckons it would only last 6 months. Given that car alternators are regulated, I don't understand this, and I've also committed the sin of running it dead flat twice by leaving the OBD bluetooth sender plugged in. Now have a battery isolation switch. Anyway, after about 11 months it's still working.

    If and when the SSB dies, I'll get an Antigravity, the seller said he would warrant it in the track car, and it's the same price as the SSB.

    SR20, have you considered getting a smaller cca battery, given you are in Queensland where it doesn't get that cold? I've rocked up to Wakefield Park when it's 5 degrees, and the Swift starts fine, and it's 11.3:1 compression ratio.
    Last edited by Sprinkles; 01-05-17 at 12:07 AM.

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    Now with more ebay parts. 2JZR31's Avatar
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    As I have mentioned. These appear to be a stock standard battery made from 4 series lifep04 cells with zero cell management hardware. So therefore the simple way to keep the cells alive is just to ensure the charge currents and voltages are kept inline with lifep04 standards externally. IE up to the user and their hardware entirely! The max charge current is dependant on the capacity of the battery and they seem to try and hide their capacity info. Can anyone tell me how many amp hours they are? The max currents are given. I would just like to see how conservative or aggressive they are compared to the general standards.

    A car alternator has voltage regulation not current regulation, so if you use a tiny motorcycle spec battery in your car, it will be charged at a much higher current than the tiny battery can handle safely, especially when it is being charged from near flat. SSB's solution's was to increase the capacity about 3 times so that the current supplied by an average car alternator is not massively more than what the battery might handle. Motorbikes have low power alternators, so thats why the smaller capacity version wont have its current limit exceeded in that application.

    These batteries are not like a lead acid. They have low internal resistance and will accept huge charge currents at low voltages.

    Go look up info on lifep04 batteries and don't assume SSB is anything special. Their sales material will severely limit your understanding of lifep04 technology.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 01-05-17 at 08:59 PM.
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    Regarding CCA, its a general misconception that increasing the CCA will give a heap more current to your starter motor. Your starter only requires a certain amount of current (prob around 90-130A) which can be found out by looking at its specs and it wont magically draw more than its limit with a 5 million CCA battery. If your battery already has a CCA over this the level with some margin of what the starter actually requires, going to 5 times this level will do SFA if the original battery is in good condition. Modern geared starters have fairly low current draws.

    So the 290cca SSB is not being over loaded in the start condition for a swift. But it probably would be while being charged from flat with the swift alternator. If you just keep it disconnected when not in use, then charge it the day before the tack, the alternator wont be charging a flat battery with high charge currents from the alternator. Well it probably still will be, but the current will be reduced and so will the charge time as it just needs to top off the small drains from your bluetooth and engine cranking.

    You can put a few high current diodes between the alternator and the battery to reduce the voltages and currents. Each one of these should reduce the charge voltage by about 0.5V to 0.7V. I would add something like this to my charge system if I had a lifep04 battery being charged by a regular 14.6V alternator.

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/DC-Power-...IAAOSwhlZYuJEd
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 01-05-17 at 08:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

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    I've had 4 ssb battery's. First one is still going four years later. Second one dropped a cell and nearly burnt the car to the ground (with a proper charger). Third one is fine. Fouth one I got after warranty when it dropped the cell from brand new was a cell down.
    They are saying it's pretty common. 1 in 10. The technology is not quite there yet. And when they go a cell down the charger reads it's low in voltage and just keeps charging until it gets hot. Then melts. Then if you are unlucky and miss the smell of a melting lithium battery it catches on fire.
    I'm not using ssb again.
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    with a proper charger
    What charger and did you leave it connected long term?

    The technology is not quite there yet.
    SSB does not use any "technology". Its a dumb pack with no regulation. And when sold to people with no clue on how to look after lifepo4 batteries without proper instruction it will have a lot to do with luck a most of the time.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 02-05-17 at 09:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    Some conclusions empirically were that a large protruding ridge like a prolapsed arsehole around the runner was largely beneficial.

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