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Thread: Evo 6 - suspension advice

  1. #1
    Registered User Skepticism's Avatar
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    Evo 6 - suspension advice

    Hey guys.

    I've done my first track day at Wakefield. Lap times and overall grip levels (and lap times) were actually really good. However I'm worried the body roll might be excessive and it might be the next thing to sort out. It didn't feel too bad in the car, but once I looked at the photos from the day... ouch!

    For reference, I'm running 9kg MCA purples and stock OEM anti-roll bars on Hankook RS3s.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Skepticism; 02-06-17 at 02:48 PM.

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    Registered User I'm DJ!'s Avatar
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    Pm turbosurfer on here I think he's NSW based and is very fast.
    DJ's don't need sigs

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    I wouldn't be setting the car up based on how it looks in photos. Soft (ish) spring rates give you better mechanical grip and reduced lateral weight transfer compared to stiff springs. This can be good at WP, which is a bit bumpy. The downside is camber loss due to body roll, but unless you put a pyrometer on your tyres, you wouldn't really know if this was a problem. A pyrometer and an accurate tyre guage are two of the more useful tools for getting your setup right.

    Do they have an instructor at your track days? If so, get him to take it for a few laps and give you some feedback.

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    Gee DJ your game to mention me in a positive light sort of way on here.
    Skepticism looking at your photo I dont think there is too much body roll, my car (9) in photos
    has a lot lot more roll. I just run Tein super street coilovers and have no idea of spring rates.
    With evos generally when pushed will under steer and rule of thumb is thicker rear sway bar.
    But if you really want to improve your lap times with a lot more car control genuine semi slicks
    (R-spec ) tyres is the way to speed. But if you use them you need camber tops set at 2-2.5 neg camber
    this prevents chewing them out etc and about 1mm toe out for precise turn in. Your evo maybe a
    little different but it should be a good start.
    Too flat (stiff) of a car will make it skate and wheel spin. When a slight softest and slight roll will get the
    power to the ground and give quicker acceleration out of corners. Thats what I found anyway.
    Enjoy and have fun.
    I told them I once raced cars (total lie ) pissed them right off I will think of something bigger.

    turbosurfer

  5. #5
    Registered User Skepticism's Avatar
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    Fair enough, cheers

    Yep, at the moment I can get power down quite easily, although I'm running stock turbo and p98. But most interestingly, understeer isn't actually that much of an issue. I'm actually getting quite a bit of oversteer mid corner. I'm going to try dial it out a little bit by adjusting damping, because I love being able to rotate the car but I think it's a little over the top. I'm already running a track alignment with toe out and -3 camber up front, so that helps with camber when rolled over. I also want to find a way of adding some more caster as well but I haven't seen any kits for evo 4-6.

    To be honest the car feels very quick already, so if the body roll doesn't look like a problem, then aside from driver mod, I might as well work on something more exciting next, like power - just have to be careful not to put a hole in the block like the other evo that day
    Last edited by Skepticism; 06-06-17 at 10:54 AM.

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    Out of curiousty what tyres are you using because thats the quickest way to reduce lap times.
    How much power has your evo got at the moment.
    What do you expect to acheive with more caster?
    What lap times are you doing?
    If you tell us this we may be able to say your going the right or wrong way. Evos are a bit of
    a marvel and always feel fast. It only shows on lap times.
    Sounds as your pretty much got it right but you maybe over thinking it.
    I told them I once raced cars (total lie ) pissed them right off I will think of something bigger.

    turbosurfer

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    +1 for what the 'Surfer said. The stopwatch tells no lies.

    Easiest bolt on improvement you are going to get is R spec tyres and proper track pads. Any of the following are going to be faster than your RS3s:

    Hankook TD Z221
    Yokohama A050
    Nitto NT01
    Nankang AR-1

    We picked up a second going from QFM pads to Project Mu Club racers, just on the front.

    And I retract what I said about not setting up cars based on photos:



    Check out the difference in dynamic camber angles and body roll. The Swift is running 5kg springs and a stock front sway bar, maximum castor, 5 degrees of static camber, spherical bearing strut tops, poly bushes, and corrected roll centre height. More castor adds more camber when the steering is turned. It all adds up to the tyre sitting better on the road, which makes the car faster through the corners, and faster on the stopwatch.
    Last edited by Sprinkles; 07-06-17 at 09:06 AM.

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    Sprinkles Hmmm castor sounds like a good improvement. I know its not adjustable on a 9 so might look into a kit.
    Im currently delaminating tyres faster than my lap times so it may help.

    Skepticism Just noticed using RS3s I missed that. My fault.
    Really forget about more power get real semi slicks and you will be at least 2 seconds faster a lap you wont
    get that out of more power. More power on RS3s will just show up the inadequacies of a road tyre.
    Looking at the photos I can see your point if it worries you that much stiffer sway bars would help. My 9 has
    more roll than that thou.
    I told them I once raced cars (total lie ) pissed them right off I will think of something bigger.

    turbosurfer

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    Registered User dougmo's Avatar
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    you can get lower bushes and strut tops to add castor to evos, its well worth it

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougmo View Post
    you can get lower bushes and strut tops to add castor to evos, its well worth it
    Good point, which prompts me to mention strut top deflection. The Swift pictured above is running spherical bearing strut tops, they get basically zero deflection. I've not measured deflection in stock rubber strut tops, but, for example, if the shock shaft deflected say 5mm in the bush under hard cornering, that equates to roughly 1 degree of camber loss.

  11. #11
    Registered User Skepticism's Avatar
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    Guys I know proper semis will make the most difference, but I'm avoiding too much money sunk into consumables if possible until I'm a better driver and can really get the most out of them. Or get a pay rise ;D. RS3s were absolutely consistent so I was happy enough with that. I primarily want the car to handle as optimally as possible as I will enjoy it more

    Regarding power levels and lap times:

    I run usual boltons, E9 turbo and a tune (98 octane). On the day I ran low boost, 17psi, I'm guessing 170awkw? My best lap was 1:11.07 (racechrono). That was with a fair bit of driver error - far too slow into T2, T3 and T8, way too early on the brakes into T2, poor braking in general into T7 and the last corner. My optimal lap was 1:09.26, I dunno if that's even plausible, but it would have been nice to hit!

    On Racechrono, sectors on the best lap were 15.11, 13.47, 24.88 and 17.61


    Adding power would be mainly for fun. To be honest the car felt a bit short of power relative to its grip on low boost, I had no issues with traction under power. But the main priorities at the moment are just getting seat time and having some fun, so making sure the car handles optimally and predictably is paramount.
    Last edited by Skepticism; 07-06-17 at 12:48 PM.

  12. #12
    Registered User Skepticism's Avatar
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    Just realised, I haven't checked is if swaybar links/bushes are okay or not

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    1:11 is a cracking time for your first track day, well done! I would think 9s are absolutely plausible in it's current trim, the key to that is seat time, and maybe some training. Consider doing a training session with Trackschool, based at WP. Highly recommended.

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    On those tyres your time is good I would suggest you listen to sprinkles advice.
    I told them I once raced cars (total lie ) pissed them right off I will think of something bigger.

    turbosurfer

  15. #15
    Registered User Skepticism's Avatar
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    Noted! Trackschool sounds like a great idea, I will give it a go.

    1:11 seems impressive but I managed to find an accurate version of WP for Assetto Corsa beforehand and had already spent quite a bit of time turning laps in the sim, so I already knew the track pretty well. Sims are a great thing. Not as fun as real life but still.

    edit: tbh I'm also pretty slow in sims compared to a lot of the guys in iRacing etc
    Last edited by Skepticism; 07-06-17 at 03:49 PM.

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    Registered User Chisholm's Avatar
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    If you want to keep costs down, the best mod to do is a fat rear swaybar. 22mm will dial out quite a lot of entry and exit understeer. Going bigger will give you even better turn in, but it'll be more prone to oversteer and the breakaway becomes more sudden. A lot of fun and fast if you can cope with it.

    Negative camber also helps a lot, -3-3.5 front and 1.5-2 rear. But tyre wear will be pretty bad if you're doing lots of street kms running that alignment.

    Did low 1:07's at WP in my evo 8. exhaust, tune, 10kg front, 9kg rear springs and revalved OEM shocks. Adjustable front strut tops, 26mm rear waybar, Z221 semis.
    Last edited by Chisholm; 07-06-17 at 03:32 PM.

  17. #17
    Registered User Skepticism's Avatar
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    @Chisholm Currently I'm getting quite a lot of oversteer, particularly mid corner, with the exception of the slowest corners which merely feel neutral. So a stiffer rear ARB would cause problems.

    Were you running stock OEM anti-roll bar?

    My camber is currently F:-3 / R:-2 with total toe F: -2mm (i think) and R: ~0
    Last edited by Skepticism; 07-06-17 at 03:50 PM.

  18. #18
    Registered User Skepticism's Avatar
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    Sorry, accidentally a word - were you running the OEM front sway bar?

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    Sims are good, Junior spends hours in his, I believe this is the main reason the little bugger is over a second a lap faster than me on a real race track.

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    As soon as my sons are quicker than me I vowed never to track again.
    As soon as they surf bigger waves and are more comfortable in dangerous surf than I same deal.
    One is almost there on that one.
    I told them I once raced cars (total lie ) pissed them right off I will think of something bigger.

    turbosurfer

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosurfer View Post
    As soon as my sons are quicker than me I vowed never to track again.
    As soon as they surf bigger waves and are more comfortable in dangerous surf than I same deal.
    One is almost there on that one.
    Nah, won't happen. You will hang around for bragging rights, like I did. For example:

    "My kid can put down three laps in a row with a 0.12 second spread"


  22. #22
    Little engine that could. itsnotagsr's Avatar
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    Why not take it to Heasemans and let a professional set up the alignment?
    "If you can make black marks on a straight from the time you turn out of a corner until the braking point of the next turn, then you have enough horsepower." - Mark Donahue Penske Porsche 917

    "In Japan we no give fark for Subaru" - Trust Japan Technical Director
    (TM - AVENGE)

    "You can never have enough power. I remember when we had Group B cars... THEN we had enough power!"
    Juha Kankkunen - Rally of Argentina '02

  23. #23
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    Itsnotagsr if your referring to my 9 I have taken it to underground race guru, followed by
    Heasemans then onto Dave at East Coast suspension now all these 3 have a reputation as
    being experts in track car setup and they are. My tyres delaminated after everyone very very
    expensive exercise. Destroyed 10 AO50s I'm thinking the shocks now.
    I told them I once raced cars (total lie ) pissed them right off I will think of something bigger.

    turbosurfer

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    Quote Originally Posted by turbosurfer View Post
    Itsnotagsr if your referring to my 9 I have taken it to underground race guru, followed by
    Heasemans then onto Dave at East Coast suspension now all these 3 have a reputation as
    being experts in track car setup and they are. My tyres delaminated after everyone very very
    expensive exercise. Destroyed 10 AO50s I'm thinking the shocks now.
    Turbo, have you had a chat to Gordon Leven? Given the 050 is the control tyre for IPRA, he may have seen this before and may have some insight into the cause.

  25. #25
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    Yes huge talk and he was really helpful and introduced me to Yoko tyre gurus from Japan that were here for
    time attack. They deemed the 1st set sort of faulty and sold me a another set for 25% of original price but
    they delaminated as well. Infact he was so good that because I had a supersprint he went out of his way and
    got me 2nd hand but good 2 BridgestonesRs and 2 Hankooks r-specs.Funny thing is they were every bit as fast
    as the AO50s and didnt ware badly or delaminate. Gordan Leven motorsports were fantastic about it all.
    On a side note the AO50s were at least 1 second slower than really old RE55s I know that sounds WRONG.
    I told them I once raced cars (total lie ) pissed them right off I will think of something bigger.

    turbosurfer

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