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Thread: Ze GERMANS! BMW FREE-21

  1. #31
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68RNR View Post
    This is sounding better and better...
    So plan could be rip the engine, give it a birthday with new timing belt and some gaskets etc, then bolt on turbo and a haltech and rip skids. If I keep the boost at reasonable levels then the diff / gearbox could possibly survive....
    Diff and box should good if the diff is an 8 bolt medium case and box is a getrag 260. Driveshafts/CV's will be your issue, and generally because of the amount of squat under power. That being said mine have survived with near 400hp for some time and mega squat so probably a roll of the dice. Make sure you replace the TTY headbolts with some engineer grade 12.9s while the motor is apart otherwise you're gunna have a bad time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Doesn't the E21 Booster/master sit *exactly* where you put the Turbo on a 6 cyl rhd BMW?
    Nah, booster should be fine. It's a remote setup anyway so just replace it with something more compact or move it a bit till shit fits. I reckon the header tank will need to move but that's hardly rocket surgery. Being a dirty log manifold you can just cut the flange and move it as required. Would be a shame to upset the nice HPC coating though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi View Post
    80mm of penetration isn't bad, i wish i had that much.
    Quote Originally Posted by schnitzelburger View Post
    My entire working career pretty much consists of suckin dick and takin names.

    Sometimes im too busy to take names.

  2. #32
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post
    Diff and box should good if the diff is an 8 bolt medium case and box is a getrag 260. Driveshafts/CV's will be your issue, and generally because of the amount of squat under power. That being said mine have survived with near 400hp for some time and mega squat so probably a roll of the dice. Make sure you replace the TTY headbolts with some engineer grade 12.9s while the motor is apart otherwise you're gunna have a bad time.



    Nah, booster should be fine. It's a remote setup anyway so just replace it with something more compact or move it a bit till shit fits. I reckon the header tank will need to move but that's hardly rocket surgery. Being a dirty log manifold you can just cut the flange and move it as required. Would be a shame to upset the nice HPC coating though.
    E21 is a big long pushrod with a bellcrank - it's not a remote booster like a VH44. A pedal box and manual brakes, or a E30 belcrank conversion might work for getting some space for a turbo.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  3. #33
    anyone? MRMOPARMAN's Avatar
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    Sweet score! I wish i could find a clean e21 body for my rally car project.

    I shall be living vicariously through this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rdyno
    70ynu has to be the most retarded cunt here. "Help me please" me "you need to remove your head" him "fuck off cunt I'm to lazy fuck off out of my thread you told me to do something I don't want to do so you're a cunt fuck off can some one please tell me an easier way???"
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripper
    Its a tight battle between you and rogercordia for the most retarded member on here, thou i think you have it by 5 window licks

  4. #34
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    Yeah the brake setup should be an easy mod. Given the size of it i could always fuck the booster off and adapt a manual master cyl to suit instead if i needed space.
    Gonna have a muck around with it today now that its the weekend. Gonna stick the new fuel pump in and see what happens.

  5. #35
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    Rightio so had a good weekend working on the Free-21. My initial hopes of a quick pump install and a startup quickly evaporated when I started playing with the fuel system. I did some research on the net and found that these actually have 2 pumps, an external and an in-tank, so I thought it would be wise to check the in-tank setup before I got too carried away.

    So, queue stinky, stale, disgusting fuel everywhere all over the place.

    Erm, that doesnt look right....





    Oh fuck.



    Appears we have been sitting for a while...
    Both tanks were completely chockers full of weird crystalised fuel shit. Starting to clean up the tanks I could see the metal underneath was good with bugger-all rust, so became fairly confident I could salvage things.
    I tried a combination of approaches, firstly I filled the tanks about 1/4 with citra-force degreaser and a couple of lengths of heavy chain, soaked it for a bit then shook the fuck out of it to dislodge stuff. Lots of big chunks of black shit came out.
    It did get rid of most of it, but still had a pretty big mess. I read some shit on the net about using oxy drain cleaner to get rid of the shit. This seemed like a fair idea so I did that.

    That worked pretty good, so between that and another shake with the chain the tanks came out good.
    Now, in-tank pump is a writeoff, so i'm up for a new one of those. I thought it was time to check the injection side of things to see what else we are dealing with.

    The injection 'pump' is connected to the injectors with some sort of plastic tubing. Looks shit, and was brittle as fuck. A bit of a test broke one off in my hand, so I figured it probably wasnt a good idea to run those... So fuckit, time to start pulling things to bits. I think this means I am definately going to go the proper injection / haltech / megasquirt path because this setup looks like a dogs dinner.

    Injectors also dont look too flash:


    Oh well, I think at this juncture I should just completely give up on any hope of a startup. Plan now, strip this bitch down and get into the body/paint scenario, get the engine on a stand and start pulling that down too. I think in reality it would be a mistake to try and start it before I deal with the timing belt and check a few things.


    Also take a moment to admire the effie in stark contrast:


    The rust scenario is not insurmountable, but also slightly worse than I first thought. I am going to have to make up some bits of metal to weld in, unless I can find some patch panels from a donor car to weld in... We shall see.


    Rear windscreen out:

    Boot looks alright:

    Factory tool kit! Sweet!


    Front windscreen area:



    Thats it for now. I'll be off it for a week or 2 while wife has bub #2, but after that im on leave for 10 weeks so ill make some more headway with the rust. Also need to do more research and work out what to do with the donk. Not sure what intake manifolds I can use to convert to proper EFI. Definitely going to have to move some shit around the engine bay to do the turbo thing, but again nothing that cant be sorted.
    All in all im pretty happy with the car. The interior is nice and tidy, and the rest of the body is straight too which will make for a fairly easy paint job.

  6. #36
    Look behind you... Milkman Don's Avatar
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    Yeah the lift pump is a trap, I bought one for peanuts based off fact 'experts' couldn't get it running. Easy fix but not cheap.

    Check bottom of doors they like to disappear with cancer too, otherwise rust where rust usually is on them, the boot surprisingly looks good, another typical places are rear windows and behind the rear wheel arches.

    The injectors 'sing' when pumping, is an easy check if you were going to try run it. I'd pull the head first though, they generally corrode from water jacket into the cylinder, will need to be repaired. I had two spares they are worth grabbing as some heads are far too gone to repair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    I agree with Rdyno

  7. #37
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    Awesome update!

    Also, you'll probably find that your fuel level gauge will be dicked when you put it back together. For some reason when you pull out the little concealed float (silver tube thing in the fourth pic) they never purge properly when reinstalled and the gauge reads higher than usual by a third of a tank or so. Had it happen at least three times now, haven't found a workaround to fix it yet although I haven't looked very hard either.

    If you need me to take pics of the spare EFI manifolds, turbo manifolds, 260 gearbox or spares I have let me know. Getting ready to list a heap of shit on Gumtree in the next week and I'd rather the important bits go to a PFer in need than deal with regular pelicans.

    If the E21 booster/master is the same as the E30 setup you should be able to replace the booster with a Renault Clio 172/182 booster and a Mercedes 190e (I think) master cylinder which are lots more compact but still extremely effective. Old_Geez has this setup on his E30 racecar and the brakes/pedal feel is among the best of any car I've driven.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi View Post
    80mm of penetration isn't bad, i wish i had that much.
    Quote Originally Posted by schnitzelburger View Post
    My entire working career pretty much consists of suckin dick and takin names.

    Sometimes im too busy to take names.

  8. #38
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post
    Awesome update!
    If you need me to take pics of the spare EFI manifolds, turbo manifolds, 260 gearbox or spares I have let me know. Getting ready to list a heap of shit on Gumtree in the next week and I'd rather the important bits go to a PFer in need than deal with regular pelicans.
    Mate, if you want to take some pics of the shit I will need that would be awesome. At least I am going to need an intake and exhaust manifold, probably your old controller (haltech?) or whatever would be cool. I'm flying fairly blind with all this mate so maybe just let me know what you think I can use and then we can work something out? I'll PM you an email address.

  9. #39
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    It will come down to whether your existing head has the same casting on the ports as the manifolds I have (731 head). If not, well, I've got a spare one of those too

    Also get a shot under the bum of the diff so we can see what you have. I "think" the e21 323i got the upgraded 8 bolt medium case that was carried over to the E30 and probably some shit ratios (if not LSD) like 3.25-3.08. If not it will be a small case 6 bolt. No big issue, you can get lots of high ratios (low 4's up to 4.55ish) in the 6 bolt and probably won't break it with a mildly tuned M20. If it's an 8 bolt you'll most likely never kill it but good ratios are harder to come by as are LSD's (sub $800 anyway).

    Either way the diff should have a small metal tag hanging off the back noting the ratio as per the pic below.



    Also if it has a big S on the top of it like the picture above then you scored a factory LSD for the skids.
    Last edited by Sketchy; 11-09-17 at 11:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi View Post
    80mm of penetration isn't bad, i wish i had that much.
    Quote Originally Posted by schnitzelburger View Post
    My entire working career pretty much consists of suckin dick and takin names.

    Sometimes im too busy to take names.

  10. #40
    Retired dsm2002's Avatar
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    E21 323i came out with the small diffs. Both of the LSD pumpkins I have for the 2002 are small case out of 323i. Pull one out myself

  11. #41
    "The bitches, are wet" Sketchy's Avatar
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    Also helpful/unhelpful:

    https://www.facebook.com/rama.rhdengineering

    Local guy who does lots of cool ITB and other stuff with E21/E30's. Is also selling a complete E21 4 pot front, 2 pot rear brake setup for $900 currently....
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimi View Post
    80mm of penetration isn't bad, i wish i had that much.
    Quote Originally Posted by schnitzelburger View Post
    My entire working career pretty much consists of suckin dick and takin names.

    Sometimes im too busy to take names.

  12. #42
    Registered User BreaksMyWallet's Avatar
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    Nice find, 68RNR.

    If the motor is salvageable, personally I'd just convert to Webers, put in a short ratio diff, rev the motor silly all day long, profit.

    Anyway, hope you have fun, whatever you end up doing with it.

  13. #43
    Registered User FioriGuy's Avatar
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    I wouldn't go carbs.

    My 242GT ran K-Jet and once it is working well it is absolutely fantastic. That mechanical intake noise and the response, love it, love it, love it.

    It take a bit to nut out how it all works out at first, but once you're all over it it makes sense.

    If I found all of the parts cheaply, i'd convert my '21 to K-Jet in a heartbeat. It's a bit harder to convert a carb car to K-Jet than it is to do the opposite!

    If you do remove the K-Jet, let me know. I'll take every single piece of it.
    Last edited by FioriGuy; 12-09-17 at 04:13 AM.

  14. #44
    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    What pressure does the K-Jet run at? I had a shit of a time trying to find a decent fuel pump for my Lucas PI system when I had my Triumph, they run at 110psi and the standard pumps were, well, Lucas.

  15. #45
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    So much information!! Man, I dunno what to do now. I think realistically modern fuel injection is still the best way to go. I really dont know what is going to be involved in getting the k-Jet working again. That being said, it might all be fine with a new pump and some new fuel lines, but its hard to say. A later model manifold, fuel rail and a computer is probably still easier.

    On a side note, I did have a nice 1jz engine here I pulled out from the shitbox soarer project, but I sold it to a guy in town!. That would have been a perfect donor. I might see if I can get it back....

  16. #46
    Registered User clutch-monkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68RNR View Post
    So much information!! Man, I dunno what to do now. I think realistically modern fuel injection is still the best way to go.
    yes.
    with ITB's

  17. #47
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BreaksMyWallet View Post
    If the motor is salvageable, personally I'd just convert to Webers, put in a short ratio diff, rev the motor silly all day long, profit.
    Ditto.

    Quote Originally Posted by irsa76 View Post
    What pressure does the K-Jet run at? I had a shit of a time trying to find a decent fuel pump for my Lucas PI system when I had my Triumph, they run at 110psi and the standard pumps were, well, Lucas.
    ~80PSI

    Quote Originally Posted by clutch-monkey View Post
    yes.
    with ITB's
    Or this.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  18. #48
    Registered User FioriGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by irsa76 View Post
    What pressure does the K-Jet run at? I had a shit of a time trying to find a decent fuel pump for my Lucas PI system when I had my Triumph, they run at 110psi and the standard pumps were, well, Lucas.
    The Volvos and BMW's use Bosch pumps. Even though it's a Bosch system I think the Lambos use Magnetti Marelli pumps
    Last edited by FioriGuy; 13-09-17 at 05:03 AM.

  19. #49
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    Yeah i did some more research last night and it looks like porsche and ferrari also used a similar sort of bosch system in the 80s. That isnt necessarily cool though as it looks like most of the parts are unobtanium. For example I was trying to work out how to replace the cottage cheese injector tubes.... well fucking good luck with that!! Only option seems to be to try and find some generic nylon fuel tube the same dimensions and adapt? Very odd.

    We will see how it pans out. Im off to visit my new mate Sketchy over the next few weeks to salvage parts, see what i end up with!

  20. #50
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Was thinking about this last night - I'd pickup a set of RB26 ITBs (or M3 ITBs can be had pretty cheap off ebay - might even be the correct cylinder spacing), a set of watercut flanges, and run the stock intake manifold through a bandsaw...
    Last edited by Gammaboy; 13-09-17 at 08:14 AM.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  21. #51
    Retired dsm2002's Avatar
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    M3 TBs might be a bit large -50mm. I seem to recall a South African manifold that uses 4AG itbs. MSmola2002 might know for sure. there is also this: http://www.msportster.co.uk/question...odies-for-m20/

  22. #52
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    M3 ITBs won't work IIRC - they are completely the wrong spacing/sizing.

    Guys modifying E30s have used bike carbs in the past.

  23. #53
    Registered User BreaksMyWallet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marv View Post
    M3 ITBs won't work IIRC - they are completely the wrong spacing/sizing.
    Best just fit the whole M3 engine then

    (gotta love that ~35 years of engines all bolt up to the same gearbox)

  24. #54
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    Practical bunch ya Germans. At a pinch I could probably bolt up a radial out of an fw-190.
    Realistically though I have no idea. I think the cost will outweigh benefit with fixing the k-jet. Most logical solution would be a later model manifold and normal fuel injection. The other part of me thinks I should find a good SR20det with a manual gearbag and drop that in....

  25. #55
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68RNR View Post
    Practical bunch ya Germans. At a pinch I could probably bolt up a radial out of an fw-190.
    Realistically though I have no idea. I think the cost will outweigh benefit with fixing the k-jet. Most logical solution would be a later model manifold and normal fuel injection. The other part of me thinks I should find a good SR20det with a manual gearbag and drop that in....
    Surely you can find an E36/E46 that some tard has balled up out that way?
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  26. #56
    Registered User BreaksMyWallet's Avatar
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    Or if you're after a Motronic M20, 1987-1992 525i automatics can be a good source.

  27. #57
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gammaboy View Post
    Surely you can find an E36/E46 that some tard has balled up out that way?
    There was actually one for sale right next to my folks place for a grand..... MAYBE SHOULD BUY?!

  28. #58
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68RNR View Post
    There was actually one for sale right next to my folks place for a grand..... MAYBE SHOULD BUY?!
    If it's not a 318i, it may be worth a look....
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

  29. #59
    Registered User 9triton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68RNR View Post
    There was actually one for sale right next to my folks place for a grand..... MAYBE SHOULD BUY?!
    ha ha -and so it begins.

  30. #60
    Grumble bum 68RNR's Avatar
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    Nek Minute - Skompa.

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