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Thread: 2018 Bathurst 12 hour

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by StOOge
    Was re watching the crash from nismos youtube and the looking backwards footage it is not clear but it does look like they were slow to get the yellow waving, but going forward they had the green out after the first crash and before the second impact. Is that up to the flaggy to make the call or would that of been done via radio?
    The preceding point on the outside of the circuit, they put out the flag when John is saying faaark and nanoseconds to impact. Not sure there's a technology to fix that, by the time the audi actually stops from the crash and the merc impacts, seems to be 10~11 seconds. Been a long time since I've done a flagging, but you're mostly autonomous, delays waiting for race control to react would be crazy even if coverage was instantaneous....and in this case the leading audi was the focus, the crash was shown how long later?

    Griffo's probably 1/2 a mil down for the weekend too, Ginetta probably has 60k worth of damage looking at pics from the pit area, merc is a reshell before the mechanicals are added and then the other ginetta with gearbox, diff, engine rebuilds...hopefully covered by driver fees.

  2. #302
    Registered User Sonicevo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane001 View Post
    Sorry but I disagree, if you get warning before the blind corner there is plenty of time to back off enough to be able to reposition your car to avoid a stationary car on track. Even if the track was completely blocked you'd be able to back off enough to at least substantially reduce any impact.

    Edit: Yes I have raced at Bathurst, several times.
    I agree with all you have said but these cars are a lot quicker than the cars you and i race. That section is both the most thrilling and danerous section of the track. Scared the shit out of me when i raced it in the pissing rain a few years back. Snowy on this forum had a near miss there.

    They need some big fuck off lights between the cutting and skyline, maybe 3-4 sets big in plain view so drivers can instantly back off. Any stationary car in that section should be treated with double yellows. They could do it pretty cheap. Fuck if every team paid $100 they could fo it without council intervention. Such a simple yet crucial thing.

  3. #303
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonicevo View Post
    I agree with all you have said but these cars are a lot quicker than the cars you and i race. That section is both the most thrilling and danerous section of the track. Scared the shit out of me when i raced it in the pissing rain a few years back. Snowy on this forum had a near miss there.

    They need some big fuck off lights between the cutting and skyline, maybe 3-4 sets big in plain view so drivers can instantly back off. Any stationary car in that section should be treated with double yellows. They could do it pretty cheap. Fuck if every team paid $100 they could fo it without council intervention. Such a simple yet crucial thing.
    Yes those cars are a lot quicker than what most of us drive, but they also have a shit load more grip, and much bigger brakes. If he'd had warning from that flag point on the corner, and seen it of course, he would have easily been able to pull up enough to miss the Audi. At the distance down from the corner that the Audi was, he would have gone close to be able to pull up to a complete stop if the track was completely blocked, if not certainly enough to only be very minor impact.

    The only solution is lights. But not 3 or 4 sets. They need at least a dozen sets of flashing double yellow lights directly in drivers view from the cutting to the elbow.
    And no waiting for race control to activate them, have a button at every flag point so the first flaggy to respond can light em up. In this case it would have been the flaggy waving the green flag, he had that flag out almost immediately.

    Remember there was also the near miss 3 or 4 secs before the Merc hit. From memory the green flag was out before they passed also. So the lights would have pre-warned them as well.

  4. #304
    Registered User FalconEL's Avatar
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    The company I used to work for called Nautech Electronics installed the Alitrax Circuit Control System back in 2015 which comprised two sets of start lights, a mega vis screen mounted to the start gantry as well as pit exit lights.

    They can be controlled from race control by a touch screen PC as well as manual switch box at the starters gantry and at each flag point. I believe the Bathurst City Council was looking at flag point lights for the complete circuit, not sure on the status of the project. The same system is installed at Sydney Motorsport Park and works really well.
    "I still can't spin the wheels all the way down the straight in high gear", Mark Donohue (The Unfair Advantage) commenting to the Porsche engineers on the 1100hp 1973 Can-Am Porsche 917-30 when asked whether the car has enough horsepower yet!!

  5. #305
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    Ok, Having read all this, Ill put a completely different position on what should be done.
    I drove through that accident and a few more like it on the day.
    I have also been working on a racing lights control system to improve safety (it isnt as straightforward as people make out)
    I was also involved in the coronial inquest into a previous fatality there.
    so I am reasonably across this issue from a number of angles.


    Everyone keeps focusing on the problem that it took too long to get out the yellow, or drivers ignoring the yellows. That question is fine for this incident, but that is not the total of the issue.

    If you get a guy just out of your sight lose it and they stop in that position, no amount of flags, lights or radio will get to you fast enough to avoid them. There is just not enough time for flaggies to react, or drivers to see it in time.
    It may have helped in this instance, and previous instances you can all mention, but it is an answer for only part of the question.

    What needs to happen is to have cars that lose control there end up off the racing line, not on it. That is the only sensible answer to a corner like this.
    The wall to the right of that corner exit needs to go back and a sand trap needs to be there. Cars losing control in an accident like that will end up in the sand off the track, not in the middle of a blind corner.

    The track itself does not change, so it does not change the flow and challenge of the track, it just means that an accident doens't have to end up as a fatality, (or just luck like this time).

    I am all for a challenging circuit, but at what cost do we not allow run off on a corner like this. It was done at McPhillimy, and what a fantastic corner it still is.

    Fire away with your abuse, but I just don't see the other suggestions actually achieving the required safety goals that this track needs.

    -Jamie

  6. #306
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    Jamie, 100% agree that would be an ideal solution. Could also then put the wall far enough back to also have a tyre wall to reduce the impact.

    That would be much more expensive and more time involved to get that up and running. No reason not to do it, I think that's a great idea, but in the meantime throwing in a dozen sets of lights on steel poles wired back to each flag point wouldn't cost a lot and could be done before Easter (if the powers that be pulled their fingers out of their arses!). Having the lights there would still be beneficial IMO once the wall was pushed back anyway.

    As long as they don't touch any aspect of the track at all, not a single fucking stone lol!

  7. #307
    Registered User DaveHPE's Avatar
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    Just to clarify your question about lights Shane, I can confirm after our Lotus Sprint day at Mount Panorama yesterday that there are flashing yellow lights on poles all the way from the exit of the cutting to Skyline. Race control turned them on for our sighting lap and the are highly visible.

    I can't comment as to whether they were used on Sunday or at what point they were turned on.

  8. #308
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    Interesting, thanks Dave. So how many sets do you reckon there were (roughly)?

    So the lights are already there. All they need to do (if not done already) is run wiring and a switch to each flag point, and give them authority to use them immediately without having to wait for race control.

    Simples!

  9. #309
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    There are lights there during the 12 hour and they are in use.

    But as mentioned, it only fixes some of the issues, some of the time.

    Live lights in the car also can be used, there are some reception issues at times, but again, it still allows for a reaction time of someone somewhere to see, recognize and react to an incident.

    It fixes some issues, but misses the real point.

  10. #310
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    I just want to clarify my thoughts and what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is not about preventing accidents on the mountain. There will always be big accidents across the top. there will always be big accidents down at the Chase. This is part of the nature of the track. The only way to reduce this is to change the track. This we do not want. But generally on a vehicle on vehicle racing together accident, or vehicle on wall racing accident, due to the direction and travel of flow, and the safety gear we now use, it is very unlikely one of these accidents will be life threatening. Sure you're going to be a bit sore, and the hip pocket is going to hurt, but it's very unlikely to be fatal.

    What I'm proposing is to reduce the risk of the 'after accident' collision, exactly as we saw on Sunday. A stationary car on track on the racing line, being hit at possibly over 200kph, is a potentially life threatening situation, as we have seen in the past.

    If there is a big accident with stationary cars on the racetrack, every flag point needs to have the ability and the authority to instantly light the place up! If this had been in place on Sunday, this accident would not have happened, as the flag point directly after the accident would have hit the button, and the Merc would have been seeing flashing lights from as early as the Cutting. Even the cars before him would have had warning before the blind corner.

    As has been proven on Sunday and in the past, you can't always rely on the correct flag point putting out their flags in time. With my suggestion, you no longer have to.

    If the lights are already there, it's a days work to wire them all up to each flag point, if they aren't already. This could easily be done by Easter!

    Edit: Lights in car is not a viable solution imo as it's not going to be suitable for all cars and if we're forced to spend hundreds/thousands to implement this in our cars it just makes everything more expensive again for the little guy when it doesn't need to be. Lights across the top activated by any flag point would be cheap and easy to implement.
    Last edited by Shane001; 08-02-18 at 07:19 AM.

  11. #311
    Registered Fatman Dark Orange's Avatar
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    My armchare expert's opinion comprises of two possible solutions:

    * More strict policing of the yellow flags, where flagmarshalls can recommend penalties for drivers they do not believe to be taking enough caution.
    * Introduction of a third level of yellow (Yellow/red flag?) that means "Obstacle on racing line: if you do not slow down you will have a bad day".

    A third solution is to do nothing and accept that the potential of recording a DNF and significant repair bills is punishment enough for not taking the yellows seriously.
    Is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

  12. #312
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    Dark Orange you're missing several points. Firstly the drivers can't respond to yellow flags that aren't being waved. In this case the flags weren't being waved.

    Second we (I) am not talking about the possibility of going home with a damaged race car. I'm talking about the very real possibility in this scenario of never going home at all!

  13. #313
    Registered User dave1600's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Orange View Post
    * More strict policing of the yellow flags, where flagmarshalls can recommend penalties for drivers they do not believe to be taking enough caution.
    * Introduction of a third level of yellow (Yellow/red flag?) that means "Obstacle on racing line: if you do not slow down you will have a bad day"..
    Both reasonable suggestions, and both already in place.

    First point - Flaggies have lots to monitor and report on, yellow flag breaches are one thing that is taken seriously, reported back to race control and could then go up through the foodchain to stewards who take action / impose appropriate penalty.

    Second point - Double waved yellows mean exactly that, something on the track, slow down and prepare to stop. One level up from a single yellow, which means something beside or partly on track, slow down and proceed past incident, maybe change direction.

  14. #314
    Registered Fatman Dark Orange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shane001 View Post
    Dark Orange you're missing several points. Firstly the drivers can't respond to yellow flags that aren't being waved. In this case the flags weren't being waved.

    Second we (I) am not talking about the possibility of going home with a damaged race car. I'm talking about the very real possibility in this scenario of never going home at all!

    I was talking in general, not about this specific event. And while I understand that "Motorsport is inherently dangerous", it would suck big time if a driver kills someone else other than himself through his own stupidity.


    Quote Originally Posted by dave1600 View Post
    Both reasonable suggestions, and both already in place.

    First point - Flaggies have lots to monitor and report on, yellow flag breaches are one thing that is taken seriously, reported back to race control and could then go up through the foodchain to stewards who take action / impose appropriate penalty.

    Second point - Double waved yellows mean exactly that, something on the track, slow down and prepare to stop. One level up from a single yellow, which means something beside or partly on track, slow down and proceed past incident, maybe change direction.
    Shit - lost my edit. :/

    The flags are currently not being treated as such. They need to be enforced, or left as they are and another flag introduced.
    Last edited by Dark Orange; 08-02-18 at 10:59 AM.
    Is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

  15. #315
    bitch lasagne Bob Vegana.'s Avatar
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    http://www.supercars.com/news/champi...arning-system/

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    Quote Originally Posted by brewdles View Post
    In short, some cunt at test and tune had a 250cc honda turning to 11ty and it sounded porn. Do that.

  16. #316
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    I really hope they don't go with an incar system to be activated by race control! Looking at the video Race Control didn't call Safety Car Boards until several seconds after the Merc hit! Safety Car Boards should have been called instantly the Audi and Marc collided. Plus an incar system will mean significant additional cost for all competitors. Drop in the pond for V8 Supercars and probably most of GT, but not for the rest of us that race at Bathurst.

    I can see this going to a mate of a mate who will make a motsa out of it. Usually how everything seems to work in this country lately.

    The simplest and most cost effective option would be lights across the top activated by any flag point without having to wait for race control.

  17. #317
    bitch lasagne Bob Vegana.'s Avatar
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    Surely you'd have it sync'd to whatever flag point has triggered a yellow, and hopefully there's technology to bypass RC and send it straight to the car. Plus I'd say most current GT3-spec cars would have the gear already fitted.

    As it stands, there was significant (in relative terms) delay in any sort of action as a result of the inital Audi/Marc crash.

    The current procedures and protcols are probably sufficient and effective enough for 99% of the track, for 99% of likely scenarios, for 99% of the racing held there. What happened the other week, shows that there's much refinement to be done of the 1%-ers that could make a significant difference in safety for drivers and marshalls alike.

    Calls for cars to simply go slower over the mount, I don't believe is the correct attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by brewdles View Post
    In short, some cunt at test and tune had a 250cc honda turning to 11ty and it sounded porn. Do that.

  18. #318
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Vegana. View Post
    Surely you'd have it sync'd to whatever flag point has triggered a yellow, and hopefully there's technology to bypass RC and send it straight to the car. Plus I'd say most current GT3-spec cars would have the gear already fitted.
    No, in this case the flag point that should have reacted didn't, and the flag point immediately after the incident did.
    This sort of situation is always going to be a safety car, so set it up so any flag point can light up the entire system instantly without waiting for the 'correct' flag point or race control. That's the simple version. If you want to get complicated you could wire it so that every set of lights before the flag point pushing the button lights up, but why complicate it. It's going to be safety car anyway, just light em all up!

    My suggestion is not about preventing the accident, it's preventing the after accident.

    And this isn't a 1% incident. This sort of thing happens pretty regularly on the mountain. It doesn't always result in a catastrophic after accident as happened in this incident, and it doesn't always result in a fatality as happened with Mark Porter (RIP), but the only way to prevent it is to shut down this section of track as quickly as possible.

  19. #319
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    MoTeC already have a race control system that can be triggered by flag marshals or race control, Also potentially auto triggered by a an Accident Data Recorder in the car. So this all exists today.

    the cost to competitors could be quite negligible if owned by the circuit and made part of the entry fee etc (ie renting an SLM and Dorien system)

    But I go back to the old point. If you give the cars somewhere to go, other than bouncing back onto the racing track, this becomes a non issue.

  20. #320
    bitch lasagne Bob Vegana.'s Avatar
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    As far as altering the track goes, that's probably the most palatable solution.

    However, there are those who believe moving walls etc, will change the dynamic of the track. I doubt that very much so. When they moved the wall back at McPhillamy, it gave noone any distinct advantage. If you rode up over the kerb there, you'd either spin hard left into the inside wall, or skid across the sand into the tyres. Anything else was a miracle. Beats hitting the fence and blocking the track though.
    Quote Originally Posted by brewdles View Post
    In short, some cunt at test and tune had a 250cc honda turning to 11ty and it sounded porn. Do that.

  21. #321
    Registered User Shane001's Avatar
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    There's no reason multiple solutions couldn't be implemented.

    The quickest and simplest would be a series of lights. I can't see any reason this couldn't be put in place before Easter, even now.

    Moving the wall back would definitely be a good thing, as Jamie pointed out the core problem here is having a stationary car planted right in the middle of the track. I'd rather have tarmac and a solid wall though, rather than a sand trap. Firstly this provides the means for a driver to possibly recover. Second if a car does go in there it's very fast with a lot of sideways load, I'd hate to see a car go in sideways and roll, or worse barrel roll, and possibly roll over the fence and into the crowd. I'd rather it go into a solid wall that stops it dead (bad choice of word I know) as it does now but off the racing line.

    An in car light system would be good for the more professional categories such as SuperCars and GT, but I can't see it being affordable at the lower levels, and radio on the mountain isn't exactly 100% reliable, plus having to wait for race control to activate it would have failed in this instance anyway re how long it took them to call for Safety Car Boards. From the coverage video this was called after the Merc hit.

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