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Thread: Where to Now?

  1. #1
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Where to Now?

    Righto lads.

    I have wayyyyyy over done myself and have a fairly serious (for home shed Adventures lol) little mill and ĺathe.

    For now things are stagnant as I wait for the she'd to get the final wiring done, but hopefully that happens Next Week or so.

    So now the fun stuff begins. But I got no idea what to do now. Especially in the realm of where to start with tooling up.

    I've ordered a Collet set for the mill. And my old boss gave me a random box of bits Ů shits lol.

    But advice on essentials for starting with would be much appreciated. I have about 1 thousand dollrydoos to play with right now.

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    Chopped BigMuz's Avatar
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    Awesome mate, the basic hafco tooling is fine for the lathe. The small face mill they sell is ok as well. Playing with aluminium is easiest to start with, they sell positive tooling for non ferrous.
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    Obviously you start turning up a set of wheels out of billet aluminium for your car. What could go wrong?

  4. #4
    Look behind you... Milkman Don's Avatar
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    Pat you are one committed nugget!!!

    Start researching making your own cutting tools, learning metals etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Faux Forg View Post
    I agree with Rdyno

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    Ease Up Turbo Commotion's Avatar
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    Do u have much experience operating manual mills and lathes or are u starting from scratch? I would spend some time at the university of YouTube getting as much info as possible. I have watched some videos from Abom79 and he does some interesting stuff but normally quite large steel items but most my YouTube watching consists of cnc stuff. Itís been some time since I had a manual mill to operate.

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    Registered User tc josh's Avatar
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    if you want I can probably send you a few carbide endmills, taps etc, they wont be brand new but perfect for shed use.

    But yeah learn how to move the mill round positionally, drill holes in specific positions and what not. best place to start

  7. #7
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Commotion, I've got zero experience with these things really.

    The whole idea sprang from me wanting to make bike frames. The cost of all the jig stand off and heat sinks etc associated was more than the simple ĺathe and mill. So i figured if get the tooling and make my own stuff, that way I get to learn new skills, put more tools in the she'd, and if always be able to find new bits to make for the car with them lol.

    So the "plan" such as it is was always to get the big beauties, set about with basics, then spend my time on YouTube learning to basics of not killing myslef. Lol. Everything I want to make in my head so far for the frame fixture is aluminum (some of the fancy heat sinks are brass but I've heard that is a right pain in the arse so machine and seems really over complicated lol) and seem relatively simple...

    As for YouTube I've been following a fellow begginer channel pithy bikes. He doesn't cover much of the machining side of things more just a good watch of someone having a go at solving problems the best they can. It gives a retard like me confidence to give it a go lol.



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  8. #8
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    some of the more stupid ideas I have come up with since hatching thisis plan lol... " how hard could it be to hook a computer up to this thing really....."

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  9. #9
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    First serious question, how important so you lads Recon dro is? Have heard things like "totally handy but livable without " to " life not worth living without"

    First project is making adjustable standoffs for the seatube and headtube position on the frame fixture. These need to be adjustable for angle and position.

    The basic frame is made out of large section tslot. Then each pivot will be on a 10mm plate. The plate will have 4 locating pins to allow it to slide along the rails of the tslot cleanly but stay accurate. I was going to do this by locating 4 holes in the back of the plate, drilling and tapping then putting in Allen head bolts that have been turned to the right size....

    Anyways, enough ramblings.

    The basic gist seems to be work with aluminium first cos it's more forgiving?

    A mate has suggested one of the really expensive clamps from hafco, it pulls down with the same force is the clamping force? That's taking a big chunk out of the budget. But seeks like a good investment.

    Then a set of cutters... What's the difference and do I really need imperials?

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    Did you get a clamp kit with the mill? If not you want to get one of those, IMO it's part of the minimum tooling you need for a mill.

  11. #11
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Nah I got the absolute bare basics. So the mill and lathe, came with some chucks, some simple drill bit holders and nothing else.

    Well a little digital angle thingy lol

    How important areas the spacer plates?

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    You need a bench grinder, with a hard wheel and a soft wheel. (Aluminum oxide hard wheel, silicon carbide soft wheel) Watch some Youtube vids on how to grind lathe tool bits, it's a core skill you need to have. If you only want one wheel, get the hard wheel, it'll do HSS but not carbide, the soft wheel is for carbide.

    You DO NOT need carbide lathe tooling. You do need a handful of HSS tool bits. Carbide isn't really need at all in the home shop unless you're doing large diameter turning and you can't slow the machine down enough. You might like it, but you don't NEED it. Personally I use HSS for everything, even though I have insert tooling I just buy the HSS inserts for 90% of what I cut with inserts. Also you can just grab a bit from the bin, grind it to whatever random shape you need, and use it. No worries about ruining a 40$ cutter for a 1-off job.

    Buy a dial indicator and a dial test indicator. You'll need these to set up work in the lathe and also to set up the milling machine, which will have to be trammed square regularly.

    Get a clamp set. You'll use these on the mill, and if you have a good face plate or a T-slot table for the lathe, you'll use them on the lathe too.

    DRO isn't *needed* in a home shop, if you keep a notepad and pen handy and learn to use the dials on the handles. A good machine will let you blind cut, you'll cut to within 5 or 6 thou of the target and then measure to see how much you need to finish on size. You'll learn what your machines can do and know what kind of material to leave on the blind cuts. I've never had a DRO on any of my manual tools at home.

    Get a cheap B grade surface plate. It's super handy for setup and layout work for the mill, also for checking square or true faces, etc. they're cheap if you can find them somewhere with free shipping over X$ orders.

    A live center for the lathe tailstock, and a good tailstock drill chuck.

    A 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck for the lathe.

    Quick Change tool post for the lathe, it's super handy to have five or six bits setup in holders and just drop them on when you need to change tooling.

    For the mill, get 6mm, 10, 12mm end mills in 2 flute and 4 flute, and a 100mm face mill or flycutter. The 2 flute end mills need to be center-cutting types.

    Get a set of parallels, they're cheap and they double as measuring tools.

    A milling vise is expensive, but extremely handy. You want a good quality vise, and the way that milling vises are made helps to prevent the part lifting up when you clamp the vise down. This is a tool to buy AFTER you have that dial test indicator, you'll have to square it up in the mill and that can take hours if you've never ever done it before. After you do it a few times it still takes 5-10 minutes.

    The mill requires more tooling expense than the lathe, but the lathe will accumulate more tooling over time with custom toolbits and the like.

    There is so much in tooling...so much. I have easily double the cost of my machines in just tooling for them. But, a fairly basic set of tooling can do a HUGE portion of the work that a much more complete set of tooling can do...but it will take longer and require more setup work to do the same job.

  13. #13
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    You need a bench grinder, with a hard wheel and a soft wheel. (Aluminum oxide hard wheel, silicon carbide soft wheel) Watch some Youtube vids on how to grind lathe tool bits, it's a core skill you need to have. If you only want one wheel, get the hard wheel, it'll do HSS but not carbide, the soft wheel is for carbide.

    You DO NOT need carbide lathe tooling. You do need a handful of HSS tool bits. Carbide isn't really need at all in the home shop unless you're doing large diameter turning and you can't slow the machine down enough. You might like it, but you don't NEED it. Personally I use HSS for everything, even though I have insert tooling I just buy the HSS inserts for 90% of what I cut with inserts. Also you can just grab a bit from the bin, grind it to whatever random shape you need, and use it. No worries about ruining a 40$ cutter for a 1-off job.

    Buy a dial indicator and a dial test indicator. You'll need these to set up work in the lathe and also to set up the milling machine, which will have to be trammed square regularly.

    Get a clamp set. You'll use these on the mill, and if you have a good face plate or a T-slot table for the lathe, you'll use them on the lathe too.

    DRO isn't *needed* in a home shop, if you keep a notepad and pen handy and learn to use the dials on the handles. A good machine will let you blind cut, you'll cut to within 5 or 6 thou of the target and then measure to see how much you need to finish on size. You'll learn what your machines can do and know what kind of material to leave on the blind cuts. I've never had a DRO on any of my manual tools at home.

    Get a cheap B grade surface plate. It's super handy for setup and layout work for the mill, also for checking square or true faces, etc. they're cheap if you can find them somewhere with free shipping over X$ orders.

    A live center for the lathe tailstock, and a good tailstock drill chuck.

    A 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck for the lathe.

    Quick Change tool post for the lathe, it's super handy to have five or six bits setup in holders and just drop them on when you need to change tooling.

    For the mill, get 6mm, 10, 12mm end mills in 2 flute and 4 flute, and a 100mm face mill or flycutter. The 2 flute end mills need to be center-cutting types.

    Get a set of parallels, they're cheap and they double as measuring tools.

    A milling vise is expensive, but extremely handy. You want a good quality vise, and the way that milling vises are made helps to prevent the part lifting up when you clamp the vise down. This is a tool to buy AFTER you have that dial test indicator, you'll have to square it up in the mill and that can take hours if you've never ever done it before. After you do it a few times it still takes 5-10 minutes.

    The mill requires more tooling expense than the lathe, but the lathe will accumulate more tooling over time with custom toolbits and the like.

    There is so much in tooling...so much. I have easily double the cost of my machines in just tooling for them. But, a fairly basic set of tooling can do a HUGE portion of the work that a much more complete set of tooling can do...but it will take longer and require more setup work to do the same job.
    God I owe you several beers.... #manhugz

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  14. #14
    Ease Up Turbo Commotion's Avatar
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    There are a few things I have noticed which are more common/cheaper in the US which arenít so here. One is the surface plate or stone or granite I think they call them? I have not seen one at any machine shop here I have been to yet but seem to be very common in the YouTube videos. Also parallels oddly enough I had trouble finding cheap ones and ended up paying almost $200 for a set from the local machinery tool shop. Another would be gauge blocks.

    One thing u may also want to get for the mill is one of those wobbly edge Finders.

    First ever mill I ever played with had dro. The lathe didnít so had to figure out the dials on that. It was very handy I was able to produce decent work for such an inexperienced operator.

    I think I may have some left over tooling from our old cnc lathe. It spun the spindle the opposite direction to our current one so the tooling is opposite and not much use to me. I can see what bits I have laying around and can donate to your cause. I think I may have some left over end mills that came as an entry level kit in a little wooden box I could also donate.

    We have another mill arriving soon hopefully and I will have to buy some tooling for it, bt40 tool holders, a couple of vices etc. I also have a little benchtop cnc mill Iím retrofitting and I will need to buy some r8 tool holders for it and a little vice. Maybe I can get better pricing because of having to buy a fair bit of gear and can try get you some stuff cheaper.

  15. #15
    Bannered takai's Avatar
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    When i got my AL320G i grabbed a cheap set of carbide tools from Paramount Browns, something like this: https://www.paramountbrowns.com.au/p...-set-9pc-12mm/

    Was enough to get me started, and then i didnt have to be questioning my ability to grind tooling and could just focus on making chips.

    This set is pretty similar and better priced: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/16mm-5-8...item5b428aab4a

    I always wanted a DRO for the lathe, just for bling, but never got aroudn to it. Never really notice the disadvantage if you havent used a DRO equipped model.
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    Another thing, pick up some layout ink. I *think* it's usually some sort of nitrocellulose lacquer, usually blue or red, that's what it smells like anyway. Pretty good, but also kinda killdeathy, ya know?

    I use layout ink as touch-off indicator a LOT. It makes seeing your scribe lines and punchmarks a LOT easier and to use it as a touch-off indicator, you paint your part and then advance the tool ever so slowly until you see it just wipe the layout ink off. At this point you're as close to a real touch-off as makes no difference, and you've not marked up the part with toolmarks.

  17. #17
    Unregistered User Permit Roadsailing's Avatar
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    just chuck all that shit out and use wet rags for heat sinks

    can't help much apart from saying don't leave the key in the chuck if you use a lathe without a "can't leave the key in the chuck" guard.

    also have a look at "this old tony" on youtube but you have probably found him by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    Another thing, pick up some layout ink. I *think* it's usually some sort of nitrocellulose lacquer, usually blue or red, that's what it smells like anyway. Pretty good, but also kinda killdeathy, ya know?

    I use layout ink as touch-off indicator a LOT. It makes seeing your scribe lines and punchmarks a LOT easier and to use it as a touch-off indicator, you paint your part and then advance the tool ever so slowly until you see it just wipe the layout ink off. At this point you're as close to a real touch-off as makes no difference, and you've not marked up the part with toolmarks.
    DYKEMģ or whatever the equivalent is in Australia, keep meaning to buy some but can't find it cheap enough.

    this is close https://www.artisansupplies.com.au/p...nd-layout-dye/ but these guys charge postage (of $20 or so) so might get some when i buy some other shit from them or pick it up.
    Last edited by Roadsailing; 14-01-18 at 10:24 PM.

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    I'd be buying a DRO before a quick change toolpost - cost bugger all for something that size. Well known motorsport toolmaker up here persisted with counting turns of the handles when a few compatriots asked him if he wanted to join them and buy discounted new-fangled Sony units decades ago. When he finally did switch, did rue wasting all that production time.

    Carbide tooling on something without much mass or rigidity is probably a waste of time even if you do save grinding.

    Most of the surface plates you see in various concerns here are under wooden covers, so mightn't stick out. Only decent ones I've seen are at big metrology operations, cost bugger all at the auction, but several tonnes of granite are hard to justify space wise or moving for most people. Little cast iron or granite plates at smaller shops are mostly abused.

  19. #19
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Thanks heaps for all the advice guys. I'm a bit overwhelmed with it all right now but slowly working through figuring out what most of it means

    The flat plates is something I plan on sorting in the future. If I get even vaguely serious about the bike frames, most customers these days expect pictures of fancy ground measuring plates to show the frames are "straight" but the closest I have found to suit my needs is the granite measuring tops from hare and Forbes. But they have stopped doing the larger sized ones :/

    Quick question... I think commotion mentioned getting the dial indicator... I can only see 20 dollar ones on eBay. Are they good enough for whatis planned?

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  20. #20
    BOOSTFARKIN Morcs's Avatar
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    Congratulations on the purchases

    Banggood stuff is of fairly decent value from what I have purchased and the reviews are fairly good also.

    I've got lathe tools and end mills from them but there measuring stuff seems OK.

    Mr Pete 222/tubelicain, joe pieczynski Bundy bears shed, oxtool, xynudu, this old Tony and many others on YouTube can help u learn alot and give ideas but best teacher is seat time and making some hot chips.
    As above qctp would be high on the list of wants on the lathe and
    Collet block set is fairly beneficial imo along with a set of parallels for the mill.

    I'm looking at a rotary table and or indexing head
    Collet chuck is on the want list also.

    Yeah the Chinese machine stuff you will find a few issues that can be fairly easy to address and make them function much better.

    Ie decent graded bolts are needed as they fail.
    I pulled most of everything that slides off and have given everything a clean and a bit of a stone with a fine graded stone to knock off the rough finished ways so that everything moves more smoothly and predictably.

    Oil for the ways I use chain and bar oil it is a bit sticky which is good and seems to stay better in place compared to engine oil.

  21. #21
    Unregistered User Permit Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantapants View Post

    Quick question... I think commotion mentioned getting the dial indicator... I can only see 20 dollar ones on eBay. Are they good enough for whatis planned?
    should be, you are probably more interested in relative runout than absolute measurements. Check if buying with a magbase is cheaper, I bought an indicator and need a magbase now (from memory at the time I thought I didn't meed a magbase/arm but now I think I do)

  22. #22
    Ease Up Turbo Commotion's Avatar
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    I picked another dial indicator and mag base up from BSC not long ago as they started stocking starett stuff and were doing some deals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fantapants
    The flat plates is something I plan on sorting in the future. If I get even vaguely serious about the bike frames, most customers these days expect pictures of fancy ground measuring plates to show the frames are "straight" but the closest I have found to suit my needs is the granite measuring tops from hare and Forbes. But they have stopped doing the larger sized ones :/
    Sounds like one of those mega dollar build tables with proprietary clamps, etc.....you'd want to be churning out bikes!

    Here's something that could be re-purposed as a surface plate....or could just keep it as is and make a temp controlled room.

    http://www.go-dove.com/en/auction/view?id=12546736

    There's a car sized one and others too....poor old Holden.

  24. #24
    Registered User fantapants's Avatar
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    Jesus Christ

    It actually wasnt really scary priced (the Hare and Forbes granite table) from memory the 900 X 600 was a touch under a grand.

    But yeah I can realistically test the effective straightness of the frames to half a mm other much cheaper ways. But it's kind of a needed thing these days to satisfy the instagram experts lol. In the grand scheme I have much other important things i need in the shed, but I get distracted easily lol.
    I'm pretty sure where I have the ĺathe is too high. It's on the old bench. But it sits super high. So I'll try a step at first but might end up pulling the whole lot apart and rewiring arranging things once I get a feel for how it all goes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsailing View Post
    just chuck all that shit out and use wet rags for heat sinks

    can't help much apart from saying don't leave the key in the chuck if you use a lathe without a "can't leave the key in the chuck" guard.

    also have a look at "this old tony" on youtube but you have probably found him by now.



    DYKEMģ or whatever the equivalent is in Australia, keep meaning to buy some but can't find it cheap enough.

    this is close https://www.artisansupplies.com.au/p...nd-layout-dye/ but these guys charge postage (of $20 or so) so might get some when i buy some other shit from them or pick it up.
    Yeah but a 250ml of dykem has lasted me for a 4 years...it's not that expensive.

    For a surface plate, go to a tombstone maker. It's actually the same tooling...you might be able to buy a 75mm thick slab a convenient size for under 100$
    Last edited by Xnke; 17-01-18 at 08:12 PM.

  26. #26
    Unregistered User Permit Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    Yeah but a 250ml of dykem has lasted me for a 4 years...it's not that expensive.
    it is here, can get a litre of dy-mark for 30 bucks, cheapest dykem i've found is about 50 including postage. might just use permanent markers if I need to mark something, though the cost of them adds up quick too. i'll check the local bearing place and see what they have.

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    yeah it's $9.58 for a 250ml at my local machine supply.

    Also surface plates-my B grade 300mm x 450mm was 39$ + 50$ shipping when I bought it, but they go up rapidly from there. I used a section of granite countertop for a few years in high school, it did "OK" but not perfect by any means.

    The biggest idea to take away from the conversation on tooling, is this: Buy Good Tools. Cheap tools are shitty when you try to actually use them, I had chinese dial indicators and DTI's, they drove me nuts. They worked OK but just fidgety and not repeatable because they flexed etc. I bought some old used Brown & Sharpe from a yard sale and they've been wonderful.
    Last edited by Xnke; 17-01-18 at 08:18 PM.

  28. #28
    BOOSTFARKIN Morcs's Avatar
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    Bought a couple packs of these a while back
    https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/3612...26rvr_id%253D0

    One end is fine liner and other is normal marker.

    Works well


    My go to stand is one of these
    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F202035797196.

    Got a mini one also which is handy
    Not bad look much like h and f quality
    Last edited by Morcs; 17-01-18 at 09:53 PM.

  29. #29
    Unregistered User Permit Roadsailing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morcs View Post
    Bought a couple packs of these a while back
    https://www.ebay.com.au/ulk/itm/3612...26rvr_id%253D0

    One end is fine liner and other is normal marker.

    Works well


    My go to stand is one of these
    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F202035797196.

    Got a mini one also which is handy
    Not bad look much like h and f quality
    I like the price of this one more

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/282743462977

    i'm a little concerned about whoever took the photos though.

  30. #30
    BOOSTFARKIN Morcs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsailing View Post
    I like the price of this one more

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/282743462977

    i'm a little concerned about whoever took the photos though.

    That's the mini one I'll take a pic and show the difference.

    Mostly use that sized one in the spindle of the mill.
    Magnet is a little weak but made adapters so use the arm bit so it can be clamped in the collet/drill chuck I use to measure against spindle axis stuff.
    Ie tramming something in.

    Been using these guys also when they have specials on.

    https://www.lprtoolmakers.com.au/
    Last edited by Morcs; 18-01-18 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Added another link.

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