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Thread: (MIG) silicone bronze wire + argon

  1. #1
    あなたの母親の肛門 Shifty's Avatar
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    (MIG) silicone bronze wire + argon

    Done a fair bit of looking. Much more expensive wire and I'll need a for-purpose argon only bottle (from what I can see) so its an expensive experiment.

    All thin material, car body repairs, filling small gaps, etc.

    Anyone had experience with this? It looks like a much better option and seems to be the way panel shops have started doing it too.

    I've done it with normal 0.8mm wire and 75/25 before but it was quite tedious and the cleaning process was quite involved. Tossing up between silicone bronze or just going 0.6mm wire.
    Last edited by Shifty; 20-02-18 at 10:46 PM.

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    There will be significantly less shrinkage, and the deposit is much softer and easier to grind. The downside is that paint dies not adhere as strongly to copper alloys, so you need toake sure the brazing line is as fine as possible and you have as much good steel as possible between repairs.

    I am probably going to use this method with the TIG and some silicon bronze when I do the quarter panel of the Ford-O for youtube.

  3. #3
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    It's also a massive pain in the arse if you need to weld close/over it later on.
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    I've done it with TIG on body panels before. I didn't know you could buy a silicon bronze spool for a mig.
    What Xnke said about paint adhesion is true, but silicon bronze is the best type of brazing rod/material to use in this regard, apparently.

  5. #5
    Loving teh titties.. carcrazy's Avatar
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    Shifty,

    Are you doing up that VL still?

    I'm going through a shitload of rust repairs on the back of a vl at the momment.

    Using a CIG Weldskill mig, 0.6mm wire, argon mix (Core gas "Mig gas from bunnings) and low amperage / high wire speed and i can run inch long neat beads / stop for a second to let the weld puddle cool, continue. I've done quite long stitches without blowing holes.

    Also using an old VL guard as donor steel as it's the same thickness and bends easily.

    Works well.
    Last edited by carcrazy; 21-02-18 at 10:21 AM.
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  6. #6
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    Ive used it (mig silicone bronze) on two cars now. I didn't use any special painting techniques - didn't know the adhesion issue was a thing. Paint still looks as good as the day it went on. When the time comes to do the rust work on my ae86 I will be using it again. Anything structural I revert back to normal mig wire and argo shield. I keep both straight argon and argo sheild mix in the garage for tig and mig welding duties anyway.

  7. #7
    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    Surely 0.6mm wire and argoshield is the simple answer?

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  8. #8
    あなたの母親の肛門 Shifty's Avatar
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    I'm leaning toward that purely because I've done it before (although 0.8mm)
    so I have at least SOME experience.

    I will probably make an on-the-spot decision and surprise myself as to which way I go.

    And yes, VL has been shelved for nearly two years... time to make some sort ofnforeard progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    Surely 0.6mm wire and argoshield is the simple answer?

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    Gas Turbine enthusiast da9jeff's Avatar
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    I was thinking about how to fill gaps, I reckon if you got some 3/32 mild steel tig filler wire and held it in the gap and welded over it you could fill some holes pretty easy. Using a lay wire technique i was able to fill some pretty big gaps on paper thin suzuki metal work.

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  10. #10
    あなたの母親の肛門 Shifty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by da9jeff View Post
    I was thinking about how to fill gaps, I reckon if you got some 3/32 mild steel tig filler wire and held it in the gap and welded over it you could fill some holes pretty easy. Using a lay wire technique i was able to fill some pretty big gaps on paper thin suzuki metal work.

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    Yeah I'll just make patches that don't suck. Done it before so shouldn't be too hard - also learned a lot on this so can do it much better again (eg. no pointy edges as they burn away easily when welding). There's basically no rust, I'm mostly just replacing stupid shit like half a dozen holes from various intercooler setups and air intakes over the car's life so I can use standard pieces cut really well.



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  11. #11
    #sydneydents Blow's Avatar
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    It is being phased out of panel shops as it doesn't be have the joining strength required when replacing a panel. You will only find a very small number of manufacturers recommending its use as a joining method. Most require generic steel mig use, spot welding or glue/rivets. The silicon bronze welds don't offer the strength required in car bodies, it doesn't penatrate the metal enough to create a strong bond between the 2 metal bits you are jointing.

  12. #12
    Still Rotating... Eeyore's Avatar
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    Bugger this is exactly what I was planning on using for rust repairs on the next project. We only use argon at work and I've had a roll of bronze silicon wire kicking around forever. I have a TIG too but no rods yet.
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    As long as it's only a panel repair and not a frame or structural member repair, it's fine to use-just remember it's limitations. It's great for putting a seam across a flat or single crowned panel or especially great if you're going to be using body solder as a filler instead of plastic filler. Not so great for doing spot welds or rosette welds for attaching a body panel via the spot weld flanges and the like-just use normal steel MIG wire for that.

    For example, the steel quarter I'll have to put on my Maverick body will need spot welds at the factory seams, but since the replacement panel does not go all the way up to the top of the B pillar where the factory join is at, I'll TIG braze it to the original body panel with a flanged join. Maybe even forgo the brazing and just flange the join, tin it with some pure tin, then solder them together with body solder-this is another option if your panel fit is mm-perfect to start with. It'll depend on how bad the OE quarter panel is by the time I get it fixed-right now there is an inch of body filler in the deepest parts of the old repair.

    (And this car was a very good looking black paint job too, until someone backed over a trash can and revealed the body filler!)

  14. #14
    Still Rotating... Eeyore's Avatar
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    My application was for rust repair sections on flat panels as Shifty has shown above (I have tried to source 'rust free' hanging panels where possible but couldn't get everything I needed) and all four floor pans inside the car. They will also need to be reattached to the sub frame rails with plug welds. There is also other sections in the rails themselves that need to be cut and plated. Opinions welcome.
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    Floor pans need steel welds, hanging panels can be done with bronze.

  16. #16
    Non Compos Mentos Gammaboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xnke View Post
    As long as it's only a panel repair and not a frame or structural member repair, it's fine to use-just remember it's limitations.
    There's a few motorbike frame builders who are tig brazing cromo frames, I've half wondered about the viability of doing it with a spool of SiBronze wire in a mig...
    Done right, brazing can be plenty structural.
    "Where can we get hold of a Vincent Black Shadow?" "Whats that?" "A fantastic bike," I said. "The new model is something like two thousand cubic inches, developing two hundred brake-horsepower at four thousand revolutions per minute on a magnesium frame with two styrofoam seats and a total curb weight of exactly two hundred pounds."

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    You're right-it can be and in some cases can exceed the strength of the base metal. But, when it comes to things like unibody car frames, the plug and rosette welds used there in place of the OE spot welds aren't going to be as strong if done in bronze. If it was a brazed join done the way bike tubes come together, where the bronze and base metal are roughly the same cross section and the bond line has a higher area than the total joint volume, brazing will be strong enough in most cases. But in a plug/rosette weld, where you've got a bond area that is only really the circumference of the hole and the flat bottom surface isn't really a bond line, but just mostly a fill-in, you have a join where the volume of bronze is much larger than the area of the bonded surfaces, so even though it looks like there is a LOT of material there the bulk of it isn't contributing at all to the strength of the join.

    Those tig brazed chromo frames give me a semi every time I see one, and I'm not even really a bike kinda guy. I'll build myself one someday, though.

  18. #18
    Registered User bang chong's Avatar
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    Might not be related but I found with my welder at home that I couldnít use 0.6mm wire. It didnít have enough fine adjustability and just was very inconsistent. 0.8mm was much better, FYI it was a 240amp mig with 8 amp settings

  19. #19
    Half Shafted. Madhatr's Avatar
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    buy better welder. Makes a huge difference in current control.

    Also, if you guys are playing around with different wire sizes and having issues, you are replacing tips and diffuser too right? depending on how much use it has seen, you might even need a new holder too. Things like tips and diffusers are consumables, same with nozzles. Even liners have a service life, especially if you arent getting a nice steady feed rate. If you have dinse style connectors on your earth, have a good look at the connector and the socket. Both of these can/do burn out or corrode and cause arc problems.
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