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Thread: 5th wheel trailers

  1. #1
    Opens ALLMTR's Avatar
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    5th wheel trailers

    Anyone know much about them? Do they count as towed weight or load weight or does it simply have to be under your GCM?

    Enquiring minds need to know

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    GCM but tow vehicle cannot exceed GVM from what I understand.

    Heres a calculator.

    http://www.venturevan.com.au/tools/5...ulator/?iframe
    Last edited by Fondles; 08-03-18 at 01:48 PM.

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    Hungry Hungry Hippo Tripper's Avatar
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    I know with trucks it varies, as it depends on the trailer they are towing
    if you look at 6, 7 and 8 its only the trailer that varies in the picture
    https://www.nhvr.gov.au/files/201707...mbinations.pdf

    Cant see much variation in the principle, of having a total max weight that varies depending on the trailer.
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    Registered User ls400x's Avatar
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    Towed weight last time I spoke to QLD TMR.

    Edit: assuming you're talking light vehicle
    Last edited by ls400x; 08-03-18 at 07:35 PM.

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    Yep, for example, a navara can tow 3000kg and have 820kg in the tray and still be under the GCM. So, even with a 5th wheeler it's still 3000kg towed?

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    PARRA MartyHusseinXF's Avatar
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    https://unsealed4x4.com.au/modern-ut...atings-bullst/

    or

    https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car...kg-tow-rating/

    tldr: significant payload reductions at max towing on dual cabs.
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    Registered User ls400x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALLMTR View Post
    Yep, for example, a navara can tow 3000kg and have 820kg in the tray and still be under the GCM. So, even with a 5th wheeler it's still 3000kg towed?
    yes

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    Well, that sucks

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    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALLMTR View Post
    Yep, for example, a navara can tow 3000kg and have 820kg in the tray and still be under the GCM. So, even with a 5th wheeler it's still 3000kg towed?
    You sure about that? Current Navara reduces it's GVM by 410kg if you have 300kg of towball weight, the recommended 5th wheel pin weight is 10% of total trailer weight. In the case of the Navara it's maximum tow rating is 3500kg, but the maximum towball weight is 300kg.
    Since these type of vehicles aren't designed for 5th wheel useage there's very little information regarding their abilities from the manufacturers. It's only when you start looking at 3/4 or 1 ton yank pickups that you start to see 5th wheel ratings being talked about.
    In saying that, Ram Australia don't mention the gooseneck/5th wheel rating, they do talk about the standard 50mm ball as well as the 70mm ball and pintle hook ratings. Fwiw the 5th wheel rating on Australian spec Rams is about the same as the pintle hook rating, since we only get the weak sauce engine and transmission with the crap diff ratios.
    The advantage of a 5th wheel/goose neck is stability, as the pivot point and weight is ahead of the rear axle.

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    I wasn't thinking about a new Navara. Thanks for the info

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    I've got a ftruck with gooseneck hitch. had a couple of goosenecks, a flat tray and a enclosed race trailer.
    it has a 9 t gcm , towbar 4.5t gvm 4.5t ish.
    gooseneck towrated is 6 t. with air brakes or 4.5 t with electric.
    I work on towbar rate plus load carry abilty
    I would have thought a navara would be 3.8 t

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    Care to share some pics of your setup?

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    don't have any decent pics of the gooseneck , sold it a while ago as I wanted a canopy on truck. have a 6m tag tandem enclosed now. preferred the goose towed way better

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    Quote Originally Posted by irsa76 View Post
    ...
    The advantage of a 5th wheel/goose neck is stability, as the pivot point and weight is ahead of the rear axle.
    Are you sure that is allowed in all states? My friend with the F250 was looking at 5th wheel trailers for the usual utes before he decided on the F truck. I think he said when he researched it that if the 5th wheel pivot is put ahead of the rear axle then the vehicle is considered a prime mover meaning commercial rego, inspections, etc and ridiculous costs. If the pivot is, even minutely, behind the axle then normal rego / towing ratings apply.

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    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfturbomax View Post
    Are you sure that is allowed in all states? My friend with the F250 was looking at 5th wheel trailers for the usual utes before he decided on the F truck. I think he said when he researched it that if the 5th wheel pivot is put ahead of the rear axle then the vehicle is considered a prime mover meaning commercial rego, inspections, etc and ridiculous costs. If the pivot is, even minutely, behind the axle then normal rego / towing ratings apply.
    Not sure about the state regulations but I know that in the case of the yank pickups the goose neck or 5th wheel are to be mounted above or forward of the rear axle, it's stated in the body builder manuals and the factory subframes all mount that way.
    http://www.doubledtrailers.com/how-to-position-a-gooseneck-hitch-in-your-truck-bed/

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    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    Hayman-Reese offer 5th wheel/Goose neck hitches in Australia :http://www.haymanreese.com.au/produc...-bed-solutions

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    Quote Originally Posted by irsa76 View Post
    Hayman-Reese offer 5th wheel/Goose neck hitches in Australia :http://www.haymanreese.com.au/produc...-bed-solutions
    That looks that it an be mounted above or behind the axle, not forward. Also, the info states that normal vehicle towing limits apply, not that you can go light on the vehicle and have a trailer heavier than normal towing limits to bring the combo up to GCM.

    (Although where GCM is quoted for some vehicles as being GVM + towed weight implies the trailer can be heavier than the towed rating, otherwise GCM can never be achieved, is another argument)

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    My understanding is that if the pivot is forward if the axle itís an articulated combination and youíll need a suitable license (HC or higher)

    Behind the axle itís just a trailer, so C class or maybe an LR for some of the yank/jap/euro trucks

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    My understanding is that if the pivot is forward if the axle itís an articulated combination and youíll need a suitable license (HC or higher)

    Behind the axle itís just a trailer, so C class or maybe an LR for some of the yank/jap/euro trucks

  20. #20
    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    NSW goes on vehicle weight, so a light vehicle which is less than 4.5 tonne can tow a trailer of less than 4.5 tonne. There is no restriction as to the tye of trailer, can be the normal pig trailer or dog or semi trailer.
    http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/...rds/vsi-05.pdf

  21. #21
    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    BTW, HR and below can only tow upto 9 tonne anyway. Otherwise they need an HC license even if they're driving a rigid with a trailer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by irsa76 View Post
    BTW, HR and below can only tow upto 9 tonne anyway. Otherwise they need an HC license even if they're driving a rigid with a trailer.
    There would be more to it than just that surely ?

    Cant see a empty flatbed being 9T
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  23. #23
    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
    There would be more to it than just that surely ?

    Cant see a empty flatbed being 9T
    HR=heavy rigid. Maximum permitted TRAILER mass is 9 tonne.
    That's generally a pig trailer.

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    Registered User SuperBoRi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
    There would be more to it than just that surely ?

    Cant see a empty flatbed being 9T
    Skels are often 4 tonnes.

    Dolly is around 1

    The tri-axle low-loader I used to work with was 8.5

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    I always thought that the thing about a 5th wheeler was that more of your trailed mass finished up as tow vehicle payload (eg: contributes to GVM BUT you did not have to worry about ball-weight) but that you still had to respect overall GCM.

    Aus 4-door utes I reckon are too light to do anything meaningful with a goose-neck given the GCM on most of them is only 6000kgs. If you built a light 24-footer you might get tare weight if the trailer under 1-tonne but you'd want to do some stress calc's to be sure. Most 4-door utes are around 2-tonne tare so the most you can hope for is 500kg goose-neck weight added to the tub (leaves 500kg for vehicle occupants, fuel and their shit in the ute which leaves 2500kg for trailer payload (but with an 18' trailer bed that is only 1 vehicle).

    Simplest to pull with a RAM, Chev or F-series although the RAM is a fat fucker - very heavy (and so is the Nissan Titan - tare of ~3-tonne) and then you can go 36'-39'

    I'm thinking:
    Ute 2000kg
    Occupants and shit 500kg
    5th wheel load 500kg - ute is now at GVM drop it a bit for safety margin
    Balance of Goose-neck 500kg
    Load to bring it to GCM 2500kg

    None of this is simple because the some manufacturers reduce CVM based on increased ball-weight (but will not quite you an equivalent for goose-neck trailer where the ball weight is over the rear axle).

    A RAM/Chev/F-series increases your trailer to 4.5-tonnes - max length trailers weigh in between 1300 and 1500kg so your trailer payload goes from 2500kg to 3000kg plus whatever weight on the goose-neck coupling in the two vehicle.

    Even a 2nd-hand goose-neck is not a cheap thing and a halfway decent tow rig is 6-figures .... so I'm sticking with my lay-flat open trailer and a 4-door ute with canopy.

  26. #26
    Look behind you... Milkman Don's Avatar
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    Bloke at work just bought an early 90s Isuzu crew cab 6t with gooseneck 20Ē-something horse float for 45k recently. Floats got a little work to tidy up but the truck itself only has 290thou legit klms on it. Only used to pull horses around Victoria rest of time parked up under cover, looking at pics aside from plastics being brittle (aircon vents, switches etc) the rest is good.

    Wonít break speed records but saves the need to go trying to engineer something or dropping 100k plus on a yank truck setup
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    I agree with Rdyno

  27. #27
    Opens ALLMTR's Avatar
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    Looking at a 5th wheel version of this



    6.4 long, 2.4 wide and 1.95 high, 1400 tare and 2800 GVM but can be upgraded, $15k as is, probably $20ish as 5th wheeler

    I'm not sinking $100k on a setup. I'm thinking of getting it 3300 rated and towing it with something $20k ish

    Thoughts?

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    I would be uprating as much as you can, you'd be surprised how quickly trailer weight goes up . i'd think that would be 1600kg tare as gooseneck . few guys up here have metalstar trailers and they are pushing 1.5t as tags

  29. #29
    Registered User irsa76's Avatar
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    Yeah, nah. No way would I tow that with a Ranger or similar. It "might" be legal weight wise, but dragging something that big and heavy would be a miserable experience.
    I'd want at least a 3/4 ton yank like an F250. It's not just the ability to move the weight, you have to control and stop it as well.

  30. #30
    arboreal bukkake briney's Avatar
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    it might be less money and grief to buy a bit bigger truck than you have, and beaver tail it? you'd need a serious tow rig for that trailer.
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