3SGE Beams vs SR20

[Nero]

which makes the best under 2lt race engine for a modest cost?

[HoonBoy]

Define "modest", SR20 will be cheaper/easier for a lot of the parts, need a newer beams to get around oil problems as well. If the budget goes for dry sump and engine rebuild etc, then the costs start to even out.

[Bill Surewood]

I'm assuming you are referring to the 204 hp / 152 kW SR20VE ?

FWD / RWD?

[Nero]

$5k spend in RWD sports sedan.

[Billzilla]

I suspect the 3SGE, as the valve gear is a lot better. (SR20 has rockers ... ?)
I don't know what the ports look like on the SR20 but they're excellent on the 3SGE and the 3SGE also has titanium valves & variable valve timing from the factory.
The SR20 block will be lighter but not a huge amount - a bare 3SGE is only about 15kg heavier than a bare 4AGE.

Five grand isn't going to get you far building a race engine though .... barely enough to get the cams, valve springs (maybe), pistons, and maybe some of the dry sump gear. Another $5K budget would help, though if you limited the mods to cams & dry sump gear you might be able to get away with it.

[profi]

Nero have a look at jamies engine.

Cost under 5k

has cams, headwork, throttle bodies, pistons and raised Compression.

Made 140kw at the wheels, and as you probably know was very close to knocking off the sandown record.

[PLAYA]

rockers are good for 8000 all day, every day in a sr20. how hard do u want to spin it?

[profi]

With a revised and modified valve train angles the standard rockers can see 9k all day.

[Nero]

Oh I spoke to Jamie last night. His numbers are very good, better than I expected. There has been a strong voice for the beams as well hence my question. SR20VE is still not that cheap.
Not much point going for a top engine given the lack of budget for a CR box!

[charged]

Originally Posted by PLAYA

rockers are good for 8000 all day, every day in a sr20. how hard do u want to spin it?

The big hp NA engines are up around 8700-9200rpm

[RA45GTCelica]

i just dynoed a fwd motor in my car that made 175kws at back wheels and was only single vvti but it cost more money than jamies motor did
port job forged pistons forged rods lightened cranks 2.5 kilos taken off it billett cams still cant get turkish billetts yet with the std steel valves port job by hsd valve springs and 48mm quads and only 12.5 to 1 comp and still some vvti as well
start adding things up rods and pistons 3000 grand head job 1300 throttle set including inlet and ramtubes 2550 inlet cam 1250 exhaust 500 valve springs 850 etc plus crankys machine bill including crank diet 2300 and before you know it 14000

[Billzilla]

Originally Posted by profi

With a revised and modified valve train angles the standard rockers can see 9k all day.

That's very impressive, far more than I thought they could ever manage.

[Forg]

Originally Posted by Nero

SR20VE is still not that cheap.

Is the VE really required? I only ask because I hear IMOA's SR-related mutterings every now & again, and I'm pretty sure he's mentioned in the past that VE's are a little overrated & you can get as much power from an SR20DE if you know what you're doing (in the same way 16V 4AGE people used to speak about 20V 4AGE's ... dunno if that same wisdom still exists in knowledgeable 4AGE circles).

[HoonBoy]

Does that 5k include purchase, installation, ecu etc?? Going to be very tight to get anything but a very basic engine if it does.

[profi]

Originally Posted by Billzilla

That's very impressive, far more than I thought they could ever manage.

Proof in the pudding

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSqA2tjvE34

[gxxr]

If rockers are a concern, apparently a little known 1800cc(?) version has rollerised examples, which may (or may not!) be useful in a racing application....standard valve springs are rubbish in anything with useful lift. Don't know anything about a VE, doubt you could beat the straight shot intake of the original - which seems to be getting in shorter supply by the day. Ability to shim the post, also comes in handy with the tedium of setting the valves.

[profi]

The srs16 roller rockers are vary heavy.

IMO sr20 for the under 10k build, BEAMS for over 10k.

[vet 180]

ok the sr20ve gets my vote!

10,500rpm with nothing but valve springs and retainers. But if you want more you can go custom shimless head and go 11,000 rpm+ Hell with n1 cams you can rev to 9000rpm with standard everything including valve spings!

also if you are real serious, convert the 20ve to single lobes, ie no vvl and get 16mm of lift with better rocker geometry than the k20a. This will obviously get expensive.

i have also seen 400cfm in and 300cfm ex at 28inches of water from these heads. There does seem to be a lot of discrepancy between head flow figures from factory, anyware from around 250cfm to 280cfm standard depending on the head. The earlier 20ve heads and 16ve heads seem to flow better.

the 20ve is in no way comparable to the sr20de which most posts have referred to here.

just a little food for thought a bog dead standard 16ve with compromised header for fitment, wolf ecu and itb's has mad 110rwkw's in a clubman.

Not bad for a bog standard 1600cc engine, and thats not even the good 1600, the n1 makes considerably more due to higher comp and much more aggressive cams

[vet 180]

i actually bought a 16ve for a budget build. with a 2lt crank and rods it will bump comp up to 13.5:1 (am planing on e85, but these heads are very detonation resistant). Also the 16ve cams are bit more aggressive than the 20ve's. However the 184c cam from kelfords or the stage 4 from franklin would be a much better choice.

This engine is planed for a ke70 rolla. If i get around to building it ill post results.

[vet 180]

also you can modify a rwd bellhousing to suit the fwd engine or rebuild a rwd engine and bolt on the ve head. This opens up a lot of possibilities for transmissions, ppg, 260z etc

[HoonBoy]

The VE is still way more expensive then a DE. My S14 SR20DE is bog stock mechanically, still used the factory headers but has a Microtech ECU and it made 97rwk's. It has a heap of potential with some cams, extractors and free-flowing inlet, pocket porting etc. Not bad for $2,200 for the lot including ecu and gearbox, you would pay that just for the VE head.

[vet 180]

Originally Posted by HoonBoy

The VE is still way more expensive then a DE. My S14 SR20DE is bog stock mechanically, still used the factory headers but has a Microtech ECU and it made 97rwk's. It has a heap of potential with some cams, extractors and free-flowing inlet, pocket porting etc. Not bad for $2,200 for the lot including ecu and gearbox, you would pay that just for the VE head.

and your still 13kw's down on a 1600cc. But considering you are running factory headers i would be very happy with that. If you are good with a welder i can pm you some header specs that will open that sucker up a bit more.

i can get ve's a fair bit cheaper than that price you mentioned. My first 20ve was $1100aud. But with my 16ve i got slabbed with some taxes/quarantine that was never ment to be paid but my importer. That wound it out to the price you mentioned. That and the fact the 16ve goes for more, due to better cams and pistons. That was the whole conversion though. But i wanted those parts, however paid a lot more than i was happy with.

my popint however is that although the de is a great bang for buck engine, if you have any kind of half decent budget wanting some serious power the ve is a much better starting point and will cost you less in the long run.

[HoonBoy]

Originally Posted by vet 180

and your still 13kw's down on a 1600cc.

If I added the headers and quads, I'm sure I would get at least 110rwkw and still be cheaper.

Originally Posted by vet 180

But considering you are running factory headers i would be very happy with that. If you are good with a welder i can pm you some header specs that will open that sucker up a bit more.

They are on my to-do list, no chance of the factory header working in the new location without chopping up the firewall.

Originally Posted by vet 180

my popint however is that although the de is a great bang for buck engine, if you have any kind of half decent budget wanting some serious power the ve is a much better starting point and will cost you less in the long run.

That was my poiunt as well, it's better, but not in this budget range.

[vet 180]

Originally Posted by HoonBoy

If I added the headers and quads, I'm sure I would get at least 110rwkw and still be cheaper.



They are on my to-do list, no chance of the factory header working in the new location without chopping up the firewall.



That was my poiunt as well, it's better, but not in this budget range.

although i see your point i till disagree.

in any race application the ve also has other things going for it such as better oil pan, better oil pump etc.

But lets just debate cost vs performance.

ok take my 16ve $2200, add de crank and de rods (i would run some light weight manleys or something similar though). this set up will give 13.5: compression so good race gas is needed.

so;

2200 engine
rods $500
balanced crank $200ish
custom intake plenum $200-$800 on standard runners
oem vet metal headgasket $80us sor around 100-120 delivered and better than cometic imo
new bottom end bearings $150-250

(add some 184c cams to this set up $700aud -$400 aud for selling the 16ve cams) and a de will not even come close)

now to get a de comparable to this you need

high comp pistons $500-$1000
ill add rods as i did on the other $500
stage 3 cams $700
springs and retainers $400-$500
same head gasket $100
balancing of rotating assembly $1000
Donk lets say $1200?

and after all this $$ you are still not going to make as much, and still have to think about oil pump, oil pan etc

[profi]

Originally Posted by vet 180

although i see your point i till disagree.

in any race application the ve also has other things going for it such as better oil pan, better oil pump etc.

But lets just debate cost vs performance.

ok take my 16ve $2200, add de crank and de rods (i would run some light weight manleys or something similar though). this set up will give 13.5: compression so good race gas is needed.

so;

2200 engine
rods $500
balanced crank $200ish
custom intake plenum $200-$800 on standard runners
oem vet metal headgasket $80us sor around 100-120 delivered and better than cometic imo
new bottom end bearings $150-250

(add some 184c cams to this set up $700aud -$400 aud for selling the 16ve cams) and a de will not even come close)

now to get a de comparable to this you need

high comp pistons $500-$1000
ill add rods as i did on the other $500
stage 3 cams $700
springs and retainers $400-$500
same head gasket $100
balancing of rotating assembly $1000
Donk lets say $1200?

and after all this $$ you are still not going to make as much, and still have to think about oil pump, oil pan etc

What fuel are you running? 13.5:1 compression is a bit high for an sr20... truthfully 12.5:1 is about high as you want to go on good fuels.

Is that e85 your playing with?

[HoonBoy]

Going off your list and adding in the pricing that I have experienced, here is what I get:

SR20VE
$2,200 engine
$500 rods
$1,000 Balance and assemble
$150 Gaskets
$120 Headgasket (sump, rocker cover, timing cover etc.)
$250 Bearings
$200 Crank
$800 Plenum
Total - $5,220

That's above the budget for this person and doesn't include extractors, ecu etc.

If you do your build for the DE:
$500 engine
$500 rods
$1,000 Balance and assemble
$150 Gaskets
$120 Headgasket
$250 Bearings
$1,000 Pistons
$700 Cams
$500 Valve springs
Total - $4,720

In reality, you wouldn't do that build. You would shave the head and fit the cams and springs:
$500 engine
$150 shave head
$150 Gaskets
$120 Headgasket
$700 Cams
$500 Valve springs
Total - $2,120
Add ecu, extractors and tuning and you are going to be under budget. can also add in an ebay spec sump and replace the oil pump if you want to.

[JZK25]

So does an SR20VE head have direct actuation of the valves rather than rockers and variable valve timing on inlet and exhaust? If the heads are that good why aren't turbo guys using them instead of the old SR20 heads?

Serious questions, I know nothing about the VE engines. Admittedly I could google and learn though.

P.S. I have a BEAMS altezza engine and 6MT for sale.

[PLAYA]

Originally Posted by JZK25

So does an SR20VE head have direct actuation of the valves rather than rockers and variable valve timing on inlet and exhaust? If the heads are that good why aren't turbo guys using them instead of the old SR20 heads?

Serious questions, I know nothing about the VE engines. Admittedly I could google and learn though.

P.S. I have a BEAMS altezza engine and 6MT for sale.

sr20ve has 2 lobes like vtec in a honda
std cams on the p12 i think is the good one is like 250 something deg to 280 deg when they swing.

ports are massive. People dont use them because they hard to get.

[HoonBoy]

Some people do use them, but it's a bit of work as it's a FWD engine so you can't just bolt it in. Definetly worth the moeny if the budget allows.

[PLAYA]

Clearly they do, but not many. They sell billet blocks that actuate the variable valve timing that are much thinner so the head doesn't hit the firewall in rwd applications.